Season 8, Episode 11
Building a Collaborative Culture and Breaking Down the Silos
It starts with how our staff feels about kids […]Often times I hear I didn’t think I could, and people didn’t believe I was capable, and they come here, and from day one, the mindset from our staff is yes you can.
– Catheleen Scott
Hosts & Guests
Catheleen Scott
Alyssa Matuchniak
Cyndi Burnett
Matthew Worwood
Resources
Episode Transcription
Building a Collaborative Culture and Breaking Down the Silos with Catheleen Scott and Alyssa Matuchniak
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:00:00]:
So we, for example, had a student who wrote a song about the dangers of body dysmorphia and what that can do to your self image. We had a student actually design a video game about what it’s like to be stuck in the cycle of addiction. So just the results were really far and wide. We got some really, really cool and.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:00:19]:
Exciting projects to look at.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:21]:
Hello everyone. My name is Doctor Matthew Werwood.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:24]:
And my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:26]:
This is the fuelling creativity in Education podcast.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:30]:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:36]:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:44]:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:56]:
So let’s begin today we have a.
Cyndi Burnett [00:01:00]:
Very special episode for you. We’re going to do something we have never done before. So several months ago, I posted on my LinkedIn profile that we were looking for creative educators to come onto the show, and I had a teacher reach out to me and ask if both she and her principal could come onto the show to talk about the creative thinking happening inside of their school. So today we have two very special.
Cyndi Burnett [00:01:25]:
Guests from one school.
Matthew Worwood [00:01:26]:
Yes, I’m also excited, Cindy and I’ll introduce our first guest, which is Kathleen Scott. Kathleen is the principal at Three Springs High School. Her work marries the disciplines of social work and education to create a student centered learning environment where kids who need something different from the traditional model of schooling can thrive. In her years since becoming the THNs principal, Kathleen has spearheaded several significant changes, including a shift from online credit retrieval to project based learning, a move toward consistent co teaching, and a shift to interdisciplinary coursework. An advocate for the voices of students at the fringes, Kathleen strives to create a school culture and climate rooted deeply in community, belonging, and care for others.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:12]:
Our second guest is Alyssa Matuthniak. Alissa is a multidisciplinary educator poet, also at Three Springs High School in Cheney, Washington, with six years experience in teaching and professional writing. A South Bay Teacher of the year award recipient, Alyssa’s pedagogy embodies project based learning, culturally responsive education, and principles of universal design. When not teaching, she slams at open mics and promotes her book, small little revolutions.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:44]:
Welcome to the show.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:02:45]:
Thank you so much for having us. We’re so excited to be here.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:48]:
Yes, thank you.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:49]:
So we would love to begin by having you tell us about your unique high school. What makes your school’s approach to creativity unique?
Cathleen Scott [00:02:58]:
Three Springs High School is an incredible place. Our goal is every day to ensure that our students feel like they belong and are a part of our school community. What makes that possible is our amazing staff that collaboratively work together to create a project based learning model that engages our kids and gives them voice. But more important, I think the interdisciplinary work that we’re doing creates more of a real world opportunity for our kids. So, for example, our teachers are co teaching all of our core coursework, and they’re doing that in a way that is unique to us. They’re building projects around two subject areas, for example, English and science. Not typically paired, but working magnificently. And so I think that between our focus on building community and supporting all of our staff and our kids, and then also creating an environment that’s more real world and related to what they’re living and doing now, but also guided by teachers who are committed to working together to develop those courses and those opportunities for our kids.
Matthew Worwood [00:04:25]:
Kathleen, I do want to do a follow up question because I was fortunate to work on a project called the Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences around about ten years ago now, possibly actually more like 1213 years ago, and it was almost like a school within a school where we would go and work with high schools in the state of Connecticut, and we would kind of primarily implement our project based learning environment. And what that centered on was a joint project where we would have science, technology and math teachers working collaboratively together. Now, it sounded good, and we had some really great success, but there were some challenges within the building, some systematic challenges. And my gut feeling is that you’ve probably had to address some of the similar challenges. So I’m curious to know, number one, how do you schedule planning time right between teachers from different subjects? Two, do you run into problems where, for example, one of the teachers from the core subjects kind of feels the pressure of having to make sure certain content is being addressed, while another teacher might feel that they have more flexibility and freedom to kind of, you know, maybe be a little bit more elaborate in a project idea. How do you address some of those systematic challenges that come about doing interdisciplinary coursework within somewhat of a siloed system that k through twelve can be?
Cathleen Scott [00:05:38]:
That is a really great point, and yes, we’ve had to struggle with both of those issues. We are very lucky that we are designated as an alternative learning environment, which provides us in our school with some different seat time requirements than a traditional school. So number one, in regards to planning time, that has been a huge factor. So, for example, we have a schedule where we have students on campus Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, and on Thursdays we have designated that time completely to planning and supporting our staff so that there’s a structured schedule where they meet with different groups depending on their cohort of teachers, as well as having some individual planning time in there. So that’s number one. One of the things that’s really supported us in that in regards to the pressure for content, I would say that this has typically been surfacing most in the area of math, where it’s more difficult for us to find the opportunities to collaborate and integrate math into our other curriculums. I feel like for our math teacher in particular, it creates a sense of pressure for them to really make it so that they’re meeting the standards and preparing them for what’s next in their real world, allowing some of our other teachers to have a little bit more flexibility. Quite honestly, I feel like it’s happening in all of our areas.
Cathleen Scott [00:07:16]:
The way we’ve addressed it is to put the standards on the table and work backwards and really be thoughtful about what is it that at the end, we want kids to know and coming up with a project that’s going to address those standards for both content areas.
Cyndi Burnett [00:07:35]:
So, Melissa, I’d love to hear from you. What has been your experience in co teaching and what are some of the projects that your students have created?
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:07:43]:
Yeah, thank you for asking. So this particular school year, I’m actually co teaching all year long with our on staff science teacher, Drake Heron. And so, depending on the term in which we’re teaching, we are addressing not only different standards and working with different groups of kids, but where we’re designing brand new projects for each of the four terms that we teach. To give you an example of what that might look like, our first term this school year, we co taught a science and English and an art combined class to our 9th and 10th graders, where we took some core areas of health that we wanted students to unpack and address, and taught kids the value of self expression through both language and the arts in order to generate an artistic product that shared a relevant health message with their broader community. So kids were looking at things like body image and body dysmorphia. They were looking at substance abuse. They were looking at healthy relationship dynamics. As they learned about each of these different areas of health, we introduced them to different art and literary forms such as mask making, poetry, songwriting.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:08:50]:
To give kids a taste of the skills that they need in order to engage in art. That was, like, message focused. And by the end of the term, kids chose their favorite area of health and their favorite form of art and produced a brand new product that shared a message. So we, for example, had a student who wrote a song about the dangers of body dysmorphia and what that can do to your self image. We had a student actually design a video game about what it’s like to be stuck in the cycle of addiction. So just the results were really far and wide. We got some really, really cool and.
Cyndi Burnett [00:09:25]:
Exciting projects to look at.
Cyndi Burnett [00:09:27]:
Wow, you just gave me goosebumps.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:09:29]:
That’s my goal.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:09:30]:
Cindy.
Matthew Worwood [00:09:33]:
But also, can I say something right? Like, yes, you’ve got the goosebumps effect, but you can see the energy and excitement that you have as well. Alyssa, right. From a 10,000 foot view, it sounds like you’ve been given an opportunity, a space as a teacher to go and get creative, to think about how you might connect student interests with these projects, and you’ve done so really successfully and in some ways. Cindy, do you remember we spoke to Liz Reddy around the personalized interest projects? And there’s a lot of similarity there about making those connections to interests. So, Alyssa, I’ll ask the same question I asked of Liz in that episode. How do you kind of, like, cultivate those interests? How do you make those connections? You know, because some students say, I’m not interested in anything, which we probably know isn’t true. But how do you go and make sure that students do find those interests and then have that affordance to go and explore them within the project?
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:10:27]:
That’s a really good question. I think, first and foremost, a lot of that comes from the freedom that we get top down. Like, I would not have the freedom to be able to say yes to my students if I didn’t know that. Kathleen gives myself and all of our teachers on staff the freedom and the jurisdiction that we have to make our own decisions. She really trusts us, and that allows us to then sort of let go of control and trust our kids. So, for example, that student who I mentioned, who designed the video game about being stuck in the cycle of addiction, video game design was not an art form that we introduced in our class.
Cyndi Burnett [00:11:00]:
That student approached us and asked, hey.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:11:04]:
You guys are great. I love the art forms that you taught us. I have zero interest in any of this. I don’t care about poems. I don’t care about mask making. I like to make video games in my spare time. Can you just trust that I’m going to do this well. And we said yes.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:11:17]:
So I think the big thing is the kids have to know that there is a culture of yes from their teachers, and that starts from day one. So that starts with trusting kids to, you know, when you’re just checking in with them regularly to check in with you the way that they want to, and you have to be willing to say yes. That starts with, you know, if a student says, hey, I don’t want to handwrite this, can I type it instead? That you’re willing to say yes. So it’s all those little yeses that you’re embodying in your regular day to day pedagogy that build that trust and build that rapport. And so if you do that enough from the ground up from day one, then they will sort of have that faith that they can come to you and say, hey, I have this interest in skateboarding. Can I do my science research project on skateboarding? And then we can say yes and figure out how we’re going to look at the physics of motion when you skateboard at your local skate park. We can do that. So I think that’s one really major thing.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:12:08]:
I think the other one is you’re always going to get those kids who say, like, I’m not interested in anything. Like, you just are going to have to know that that isn’t true and be willing to spend the time and sit with them and figure out and observe by their behavior what they are interested in. So if you notice that they spend a lot of time on TikTok, watching those, like, videos of people, like, making their own harmonies on a loop machine, figure out, is there a way we can incorporate thinking about wave functions in a science and english class and songwriting.
Cyndi Burnett [00:12:33]:
Right.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:12:34]:
So also just being observant and being willing to pay attention to the little.
Cyndi Burnett [00:12:37]:
Things that really matters. So this culture of. Yes, I really appreciate, as I was.
Cyndi Burnett [00:12:42]:
Reading about the school, students also choose to go to your school. So it’s a choice to go to your school and do they then apply to the school?
Cathleen Scott [00:12:53]:
Yes. So, you know, that has evolved, quite honestly, during the time that I’ve been here, and the school has had many morphs over the years it’s been in existence. But one that I feel like, and our team feels like has been probably the most important has been that we shift from a culture of students feeling like they didn’t have a choice, they got placed somewhere, and that they weren’t good enough to be a student at a traditional school. To instead sharing why this school is different in a way that is going to benefit their learning style, their learning needs, et cetera, and advertising it that way. And that is, we’ve been out there talking to our kids and our community and helping them understand that different doesn’t mean that you are bad. And instead, it’s actually a really great opportunity for students to be a part of something that’s going to allow them and empower them to be their best selves. And so that has been a big focus for us because parents will come to me and say, I want my kid to go to your school. Great, let’s see if they agree.
Cathleen Scott [00:14:13]:
And we’ve been pretty upfront in every meeting and every conversation that, you know what? If a student’s not 100% bought in, then it’s not going to be the right place or right environment for them. And so we really want everyone to feel that. And that’s our staff as well. I love our staff and we’ve had some staff come and go, and I’m always very supportive of that. And there’s been a couple that have left recently that have broken my heart, but they are doing bigger and better things and taking this mindset and this creativity to their new places. And we’ve welcomed people who are also 100% bought in and really want to be a part of our community.
Matthew Worwood [00:14:58]:
I do want to follow up on something that you just said. People who have this mindset and I think approach to creativity, I might not be quoting you perfectly there. I want to know what is that when you’re interviewing someone or you feel you’re losing that? What is that that we’re talking about?
Cathleen Scott [00:15:14]:
Honestly, it starts with how staff feel about kids, and ultimately it’s about their growth mindset and their willingness to see the value and positivity in every one of our kids. And so when we’re asking questions in an interview, it’s about pedagogy and it’s about those things and their willingness to collaborate with one another. But it’s also mostly about their viewpoint on learning and kids and seeing the good in all of our kids. All of us come with challenges and all of us have our worries and all of us have where we came from. And I think one of the things that I appreciate about our school and from our students is oftentimes we’ll hear, I didn’t think that I could or people didn’t believe that I was capable. And they come here and from day one, the mindset from our entire staff is, yes, you can. And we work very, very, very hard at creating that community where kids feel like they’re part of it and they may not be there yet. We really do.
Cathleen Scott [00:16:31]:
And that’s just like a daily philosophy. And that’s part of what I remind our team. They remind me when it gets tough. Hey, you know what? It was a bad day. It was a bad week. It was a whatever. But tomorrow’s a new day, and kids are gonna. They come back to us and they are ready to try again.
Cathleen Scott [00:16:53]:
And we need to be ready to try again, too. And we are very clear with our kids that we are not perfect people and that we mess up and we apologize when we do. And so we’re just modeling. I feel like a community and expecting from our kids and families that same respect. And that makes us just a pretty unique and pretty great place.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:17:18]:
Is it okay if I add onto.
Cyndi Burnett [00:17:19]:
That a little bit? Absolutely.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:17:22]:
When I think about our staff, like all of the teachers who work here, and even beyond just the educators, when I think about our principal, when I think about our secretary, when I think about our counselor and our social work intern, I think the one major thing that I see all of us having in common is a really strong balance between forethought and planning and a willingness to be spontaneous and flexible. I really think that every single one of us has a good balance of those two things. So, you know, when we have that Thursday planning time, we’re doing incredibly deep work, thinking about the integration of disciplines, thinking about how do we get guest speakers to come to our room? Can we take our kids out on field trips that are relevant? How can we, like, embed the local community in our work, but we also have the flexibility to go in the middle of a class.
Cyndi Burnett [00:18:05]:
Hmm.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:18:06]:
This is really not doing it. This is not working. We gotta pivot and be ready to pivot. And I would say historically, at least in my experience, all of us have that ability to go, oh, that’s not working.
Cyndi Burnett [00:18:16]:
Shift gears. Let’s try again.
Matthew Worwood [00:18:22]:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, curiosity to create.
Cyndi Burnett [00:18:30]:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.
Matthew Worwood [00:18:42]:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.
Cyndi Burnett [00:18:57]:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode.
Matthew Worwood [00:19:05]:
One thing just to mention, you know, from a 10,000 foot view, and I think, really, it’s just me paying a compliment, is that I think there’s a lot of facilitation, Kathleen, that you’re doing. I mean, if you think, you know, Alyssa said, I want to bring my principal on. I mean, let’s not overstate, right? If there are any principals listening right now, like, we should acknowledge that here is a teacher who’s excited and passionate about their school and their work, and they want to talk about the work. But, oh, I need to recognize that I’m within a school, and I’ve had opportunities to do what I’m doing because of my principal. My principal is an important part of that system, and so I need to bring them on. Cause they’re part of that story. So that there, in itself, I think, says a lot about the culture that exists at your school. And I’m just out curious.
Matthew Worwood [00:19:53]:
I don’t know if you’ve got any taglines around the yes culture, but it was. It was so interesting to hear the fact that Kathleen says yes. And so you feel that you say yes to the students, right. And that culture of yes. I mean, is it just coming out in this interview, or is that something that actually you do talk about as a school to represent your culture? We’re a yes school. We say yes to everything, right?
Cyndi Burnett [00:20:17]:
Yes. Yes.
Matthew Worwood [00:20:19]:
Wait, was you about to say. Was you about to say yes and no?
Cathleen Scott [00:20:23]:
I was going to say absolutely yes.
Cyndi Burnett [00:20:26]:
You know, our motto is we choose three springs. And I think from that, from that motto, it has become this opportunity for us to find ways to say yes.
Cyndi Burnett [00:20:39]:
So, yes, it is.
Cathleen Scott [00:20:41]:
And I would say also that I just want to do a shout out to my boss, Kelly Nichols, who has really allowed me to flourish in these opportunities, to be at this school full time in it with these kids and the staff, because we have a little over 100 kids. And so, as a district, our school district has very much empowered us to go far and do this and do it right and do what’s best for kids. And I just want to say that. And so as far as yes goes, there’s always those limitations. And I try to keep that, you know, from my team as far as, like, the money aspects and the, you know, the bureaucracy that happens. But in general, I feel really supported from a district level, which allows me to really support my team. And then as far as that question you asked or the comment you made about the facilitation piece. I think what I’ve learned is that the systems that we put in place in support of kids and teachers are what make this possible.
Cathleen Scott [00:21:52]:
You know, Katie Karshney, she’s a coach that came and worked with our school last year and really helped me, I would say put in some great systems around, for example, learning labs. So we are in each other’s classrooms learning from each other. We’re planning and very specifically around that co teaching model and practicing it together. And our kids are aware of that and they’re a part of that. And sometimes they’re looking at us like we’re nuts. But you know what? They go with it and they appreciate it. What we’ve done very intentionally is make sure we have planning time one, but also prioritize our learning as a team together and including our kids in that, and including student voice and what we do as far as what classes we teach, how we teach them, the project, etcetera.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:22:45]:
If I can add on to that as well. I think that. So something I really appreciate from an educator perspective that I think is unique, at least to how Kathleen operates as an administrator, is when I think about leadership styles that I’ve experienced in the past, it tends to be very hierarchical. I’ll go to a staff meeting once a month. I’ll be read my, like, list of directives, and then it’s like, off you go, soldier into the wild. Go enact these operatives that I had no voice in, that I didn’t get to participate in. I feel disengaged from that process. But here at three springs, whenever we meet together as a staff, everything is very cyclical, everything is very collaborative.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:23:24]:
I think that if you wandered into our building and watched us have a staff meeting, it would actually be pretty unclear who the administrator is. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Kathleen gives all of us a lot of voice and choice ourselves as educators to say, hey, this week we really need to prioritize. This next week we can go back to thinking about this other thing. And I think that that allows all of us to be leaders in our own right, and us having that freedom we get then can pass it on to our kids and find ways to help them see their own leadership potential.
Cyndi Burnett [00:23:56]:
So as far as having choice and voice, I am a huge advocate for both of those things in the classroom, and I think it’s not happening as much as I would like to see it in high school classrooms. And I know I have a son who is in high school right now. He’s a sophomore, and most of the work he’s doing is very regimented. It’s studying for AP tests. It’s boring and much more traditional. So I wonder, when people come to you and say, okay, you’re doing this completely different approach to high school, what do you show them in terms of what happens to these students? That’s what I’d like to know is what happens to these students once they graduate?
Cathleen Scott [00:24:38]:
That’s a really valid and valuable question. And that is, we’re in the beginnings of that, right? Like, this is two or three years now. And so, you know, our first cohort that have been with us this entire time, our seniors next year. So that’s the data we’re collecting. Right. What I hear from students anecdotally who’ve graduated with us, they are feeling far more prepared for real world. They’re saying, like, they feel like they can go out and get an apartment or live on their own. I mean, just basic life stuff.
Cathleen Scott [00:25:21]:
But as far as, like, that higher level learning, I don’t know yet. I feel like our kids leave us feeling loved and supported and cared about and better off for the opportunity. But that’s the piece that I’m still. I’m hopeful. I’m really hopeful. We know the research supports what we’re doing, you know, as far as that critical thinking piece and executive functioning piece that we’re really working so hard to support. And so I have confidence that that’s what we’re going to see as our kids leave.
Cyndi Burnett [00:25:57]:
So I think that leads to a really interesting opportunity to have you back on the show in a few years with a few of your graduates to talk about their experiences going through your curriculum in this way, because I just think it’s fascinating. And I think if I were to go through a curriculum like that, if I had gone through a curriculum like that when I was in high school, I probably would have been much happier than in my traditional public high school.
Cyndi Burnett [00:26:21]:
That I was in. I always say to our families, like, I did fine. I went to a traditional high school. I’m doing fabulous. Like, I’m happy. I’m healthy. I’ve got a good job, a career. So it works.
Cathleen Scott [00:26:35]:
And for a lot of kids, it does. And I believe we’re catching kids that might not have been successful in a traditional environment, and we’re catching kids that would have passed and moved on but would have been bored out of their mind. So I think we’re catching a lot of kids that otherwise might not have or their trajectory would have looked different if they hadn’t had us.
Matthew Worwood [00:27:05]:
Part of this conversation is reminding us. It sounds like I’m doing a plug for a few shows here, but we’ve had a conversation with somebody called Victoria Waller, who spoke a lot about her work with students with learning differences. And she’s had this wonderful statement that she never meant a child who doesn’t want to learn. And B, every child has interests, and once you make those connections to those interests, there’s absolutely no stopping them. And I certainly, I’ve got someone that I know, and I mean, you know, identified with some learning challenges at an early age. But without a doubt, I think one of the most talented, creative people I know around engineering and just like, coming up with solutions to problems associated with product development and electrical items, just absolutely mind boggling brilliance. And I feel like they’ve spent a lot of time trying to find spaces that allow them to accommodate for that talent. That is just something you just don’t see.
Matthew Worwood [00:28:14]:
I suppose that’s what it is. So often we can make these observations about this incredible talent or potential that students have, students possess, but not every environment can accommodate that potential. I think that’s the key point, is recognizing that you don’t always have to fit into the traditional mold in order to define yourself as being successful or as being. I don’t know, I haven’t got a better word for it. But, you know, it’s about really just finding a space where you can be you and you can actually deploy and grow on your creative abilities. And it sounds like your school is doing an incredible job at that. And hopefully through this podcast, more families, whether it’s your school or other schools, other families can say, you know what, let me spend some time actually identifying the better space for my child, as opposed to me thinking where they should be based on what society says that they should be doing at a certain age. Now, before we go, I do want to switch this up, and I want to come back to the very first question, because, Kathleen, you had said something really early on where you would kind of acknowledge to a certain extent that by not being a traditional school, you might have a little bit more freedom in certain areas.
Matthew Worwood [00:29:22]:
But nevertheless, you said something about math being a challenge. Right? It’s content. And so math is a challenge. So if I’m an administrator, listening and being inspired, and I think there’s really a lot of inspiring stories, you know, that you’re sharing here today, is there a particular kind of, like, subjects that match up really well? What’s a perfect match? If I was going to try and just, you know, I align two subjects. Where would I start off? Like, I can’t change the whole school, but maybe I’m looking for just two teachers or three teachers. Where do you think I should start? Is it, is it subject based or is it purely based on the teacher and some of the characteristics you referenced?
Cathleen Scott [00:29:57]:
I feel like it’s not subject based. I do feel like it’s the characteristics of the teachers and their willingness to take risks and be willing to collaborate and let another content take a moment ahead and share that ability to really see how we can integrate and then be willing to compromise along the way in the support of both. And that does take, you know, we all know our, our favorite teacher who’s like my contacts the most important always, and that was tuch, it was me. And she has definitely evolved in that sense way. Grace.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:30:50]:
Yeah.
Cathleen Scott [00:30:51]:
And so, but, you know, she has a partner where like, they together have really just like flourished and been willing to like, step outside their comfort zone and try something. And it’s fun to watch, it’s fun to see. And then our other teaching teams, it’s interesting. Like, we paired a financial, algebra and us history class last semester and it turned out to be incredible and amazing. And our kids walked away, you know, really understanding some crucial pieces of history when it came to housing and education and just some things that, like, are really real world to them and going to impact how they see the world. So I feel like really, it doesn’t matter as much as you have to be willing and be ready to pivot when necessary. I think that’s something that our teams have really had to like, they do a lot. They’re really great at their backwards planning, but also recognizing along the way that there’s going to be times where, whoops, that is not working and we’ve got to figure something out.
Cyndi Burnett [00:32:07]:
So, yeah, I would say also it’s.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:32:10]:
A willingness to get creative with how you look at skills and standards.
Cyndi Burnett [00:32:13]:
Absolutely.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:32:14]:
So, like, for example, I haven’t gotten to do this yet, but I’ve been wanting to talk to our math teacher for a while because I feel like both English and math are like, we’ll just tack mon to the bottom of something else happens a lot. And I’ve been wanting to work with our math teacher and talk about how like, hey, in mathematics, being able to understand, recognize and analyze patterns shows up a lot in mathematics classes.
Cyndi Burnett [00:32:35]:
That shows up a lot in english.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:32:36]:
Classes in terms of, like, literary analysis and being able to understand word choice, literary devices that sort of thing. Why don’t we do something together around pattern analysis and figure out how we can look at that a little bit more broadly? So I think it’s also a willingness to not be so married to the.
Cyndi Burnett [00:32:54]:
Like, letter of the law when it.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:32:56]:
Comes to standards and being willing to.
Cyndi Burnett [00:32:58]:
See their spirit a little bit more. And once you get started, you can’t stop. True. That’s the other part. Like once, like now, they’re like, all want to work together and we don’t have enough time in the day, but it’s pretty great to see that. And it’s fun to watch them get creative. And sometimes I’m like, okay, guys, take it back. But mostly it’s yes, mostly yes.
Cyndi Burnett [00:33:26]:
Well, Kathleen and Alyssa, I have to say, I just feel energized even talking to both of you, how spirited both of you are about schools and teaching. And Matt, I don’t know about you.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:33:37]:
But I sort of want to fly.
Cyndi Burnett [00:33:38]:
Out to Washington just to take a.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:33:40]:
Peek around the school because I think.
Cyndi Burnett [00:33:41]:
It just sounds amazing.
Matthew Worwood [00:33:43]:
I totally agree. I mean, I’m sitting back in the chair because I could go on and on. Unfortunately, our viewers can’t see their passion and energy and how they’re jumping off of each other. But, you know, so I’m seeing a great conversation, our debrief, because there’s, there’s so many amazing things that have come out of this discussion. Absolutely.
Cyndi Burnett [00:33:58]:
So we wrap up every episode with three tips you would give to educators to help them bring creativity into the classroom. So what three tips would you give them?
Cyndi Burnett [00:34:08]:
Okay, so I have one tip, and.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:34:09]:
Then Kathleen’s going to share, too. So my one tip, I think that helps bring creativity into the classroom. This is maybe a hot take, is you need to have a creative life yourself. And when people hear that, they think that, I mean, oh, you have to be an artist.
Cyndi Burnett [00:34:22]:
You have to paint.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:34:23]:
Like, no, you do not. I cannot draw stick figures. Right. But I’m still a very creative person. I write poetry. Maybe your creative approaches, you’re really good at organizing spaces. Maybe you’re really good at interior design. Maybe.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:34:35]:
You know, Matt, as you were saying earlier, you have that friend who, like, solves brilliant engineering problems in unique ways.
Cyndi Burnett [00:34:40]:
That’s creativity.
Alyssa Matuchniak [00:34:41]:
It doesn’t have to be arts focused, but you need to nourish your own creative cup in order to then pour it back out into your work. And you have to find out what that is for you. But I promise you, every single person on this planet has it. So find your creative nook, make sure that on your off, like, non contract hours that you’re pouring meaningfully into yourself for whatever that looks like, and then it will pay dividends, it pays rewards in the classroom.
Cyndi Burnett [00:35:07]:
So I would say build the systems. I know that seems like boring, but you really do have to have systems in place that allow for the collaboration to happen and then tied to that. As a leader, I believe that I do not hold all the answers and I have got to. I do. I trust my teachers, and I think the more I trust them, the more willing they are to stand up for what’s right and for what’s best, but also do so in a way that’s going to be the most creative and supportive of our kids. And so there’s not one right way. And sometimes I have to be the guy that says, that’s it, this is the answer. But in general, I believe that you have to trust the educators in the classroom who are working with our kids every day.
Cyndi Burnett [00:36:07]:
So systems of support, trust our leader, trust our teachers, but also trust in your kids. Like, our students know what they need. They need us to listen and hear them and let them guide our next steps. So I think crucial component is our kids. They have more to say than what we give them the opportunity to share. But not at our school. We’re always listening.
Matthew Worwood [00:36:42]:
All right, well, listen, I think unfortunately we’ve run out of time, but this, this was an incredibly inspirational conversation. And, you know, we wish you all the best as you continue to work this out. You know, Alyssa, you kind of like, hook the math teacher and english teachers in on the next project. Yeah, I have no doubt you’re gonna, you’re gonna kind of continue to conquer of the world within your community. So we wish you all the best on that endeavor. Now, I can’t help but think, Cindy, this was a great episode with a teacher and a principal. So I’m going to actually just do a shout out to the community if you want to come on the show with your principal, if you’re a teacher listening and you want to come on with your principal, we want to have another one of these episodes because they were absolutely fantastic being able to talk about that relationship, the teacher and principal relationship, and how that can help build a culture of creativity at your school. And likewise, if you are an administrator or a leader and you want to bring a colleague, a teacher in or somebody else in to talk on the podcast, we want to hear from you so you can reach out to us@questionsuelingcreativitypodcast.com.
Matthew Worwood [00:37:43]:
And Cindy, and I are also very active on LinkedIn, so you can reach out to us on LinkedIn as well. Okay. So thats all weve got in store for you on Todays show. My name is Doctor Matthew Werwood, and.
Cyndi Burnett [00:37:53]:
My name is, my name is doctor Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by Matthew Warwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create. And our editor is Sam Atkinson.
How does interdisciplinary learning help enchance creative thinking?
In this episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast, hosts Dr. Matthew Worwood and Dr. Cyndi Burnett speak with interdisciplinary educator Alyssa Matuchniak and School Principal Cathleen Scott about the innovative approaches at Three Springs High School. The discussion highlights how creativity and flexibility in curriculum design can address diverse student needs and foster an environment where every student thrives. Alyssa shares inspiring examples from her teaching experience, including projects where students explore health topics through various art forms, such as songwriting and video game design, demonstrating the school’s commitment to student-led learning and expression.
The hosts and guests emphasize the significance of fostering a “culture of yes” within schools, where staff are encouraged to be both prepared and willing to adapt based on student feedback and interests. This philosophy not only supports educational engagement but also builds trust, allowing students to feel valued and understood. The conversation points out the crucial role of collaboration among educators and the importance of principals and teachers working together to cultivate a creative and inclusive school culture that embraces all students, regardless of their backgrounds or challenges.
Further exploring the operational side of creativity in education, the episode covers the logistical and strategic frameworks that support innovative teaching methods at Three Springs High School. Challenges such as scheduling, interdisciplinary collaboration, and maintaining dynamic teaching approaches are discussed. Principal Cathleen Scott elaborates on the strategies for overcoming these challenges, emphasizing the school’s community-centric approach that nurtures belonging and care among students and staff.
Guest Bio
Catheleen Scott is the principal at Three Springs High School. Her work marries the disciplines of social work and education to create a student-centered learning environment, where kids who need something different from the traditional model of schooling can thrive. In her years since becoming the TSHS principal, Catheleen has spearheaded several significant changes, including a shift from online credit retrieval to project-based learning, a move towards consistent co-teaching, and a shift to interdisciplinary coursework. An advocate for the voices of students at the fringes, Catheleen strives to create a school culture and climate rooted deeply in community, belonging, and care for others.
Alyssa Matuchniak is a multidisciplinary educator-poet at Three Springs High School in Cheney, WA, with six years experience in teaching and professional writing. A South Bay Teacher of the Year award recipient, Alyssa’s pedagogy embodies project-based learning, culturally responsive education, and principles of Universal Design. When not teaching, she slams at open mics and promotes her book, Small Wars, Little Revolutions. She earned her M.A. in Teaching from UC Irvine and her B.A. in Literature from UC Santa Cruz.
Debrief Episode
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Podcast Sponsor

We are thrilled to partner with Curiosity 2 Create as our sponsor, a company that shares our commitment to fostering creativity in education. Curiosity 2 Create empowers educators through professional development and community support, helping them integrate interactive, creative thinking approaches into their classrooms. By moving beyond traditional lecture-based methods, they help teachers create dynamic learning environments that enhance student engagement, improve academic performance, and support teacher retention. With a focus on collaborative learning and exploration, Curiosity 2 Create is transforming classrooms into spaces where students thrive through continuous engagement and growth.