Season 8, Episode 12
The Creativity in Art, Visualization, and Sense Making
The chair you sit on. Everything. The desk you use, the pens. Everything around you is designed. And it’s about someone having an original idea. Everything. In everyday life is designed. And we need to shift our thinking to that because it’s important.
– Dr. Cheryle Yin Lo
Hosts & Guests
Cheryle Yin Lo
Cyndi Burnett
Matthew Worwood
Resources
Episode Transcription
The Creativity in Art, Visualization, and Sense Making with Dr. Cheryle Yin Lo
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:00:00]:
The chair you’re sitting on, everything your desk you use, the pens, everything around you is designed by someone and is about someone having an original idea or it’s everything we drive books, everything is designed, you know, so that’s what I’m saying about in everyday life, people think it’s in this silo. So I think the more that we can actually shift our thinking to that, it’s quite important.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:23]:
Hello everyone. My name is Doctor Matthew Werwood.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:26]:
And my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:28]:
This is the fuelling creativity in education podcast.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:32]:
On this podcast we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:38]:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:46]:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:58]:
So let’s begin.
Cyndi Burnett [00:01:00]:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fueling Creativity and Education podcast. Today we are going to talk with a very special guest and if you, our listener, are interested in arts education, creativity and cultural development, you’re going to love this episode. So today we welcome to the show Doctor Cheryl Yin Low who is an artist, arts educator, creative mentor, community cultural development specialist and cultural consultant, and the director and founder of Creative Traveler Enterprises in Australia. She has worked in the creative industries for over three decades in Australia and overseas. Her work focuses on arts based programs across diverse sectors and communities. Her doctorate in cultural research focused on creative arts as a catalyst for community participation and environmental stewardship. She teaches art in community and at university as a form of self expression and communication in teaching for primary school teacher trainees. Welcome to the show, Cheryl.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:02:04]:
Thank you. Thank you, Cindy. Yeah, it’s a pleasure to be with you across the world and connecting with you.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:11]:
So Cheryl, your work focuses on living an extraordinary creative life. What would you recommend to educators out there listening to help them live an extraordinary creative life?
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:02:23]:
People think that art is actually for special people and that it takes talent and that are either born with it, but I believe that, you know, as humans, we’re all creative. And so I really shifted my teaching and my attitude to education about artist education through the things that we should be doing every day. Like being curious about immersing yourself in all the senses and also building your visual literacy by walking around, actually looking at things usually where actually just going from a to b and forgetting about just everyday sensations and how we experience those. And we miss out on quite a lot, and just the way that actually works in terms of creating excitement and joy. And we hear a lot about that and those buzzwords, but it is actually about how we excite ourselves still. And so I think creativity is an amazing kind of thing to introduce every day. And once you actually instill that and drawing upon your inner resources, and I think everybody keeps thinking, yes, it is an external thing about the skills that you learn, but just having that confidence to reconnect with your natural creativity is so exciting on every level and every day. And not just when you go for a retreat on a weekend and do a workshop.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:03:36]:
And then you come back and you go back into the normal grind. It’s like professional development for teachers. You know, you get excited that you get the opportunity to do some professional development and you go there and you get excited, but then how do you then integrate it back into the classroom, you know? So it’s about really how we take that and in small and large ways. Yeah. So that’s why I’ve been researching and talking to lots of people, working with people about how they can actually do small things, even in a nine to five job when you’re in the school, and it’s not just in that silo.
Matthew Worwood [00:04:08]:
And just to kind of follow up a little bit more on this, and I don’t want to make an assumption, but it feels like, given your background and how you responded to that, there’s a slight artistic approach to how you’re viewing this creative life. And within that, you talk a lot about self and the senses and thinking about the relationship between yourself and your environment. Is that part of creativity, or is that more of the artistic approach to creativity that you see? I’m just, I’m just curious because that self aspect quite often is spoken about within the arts. We don’t actually talk enough about it on the show, I think.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:04:44]:
But I think it also, when we learn about art, making it so much focused still on the skill. And so, you know, we have sort of raw materials and we’re learning things, and people judge whether it’s good or bad about what we make, but I think it’s more about reflecting insight about everything’s unique, about what’s coming from an individual and the way they might interpret or use those materials. And that’s what I’m interested in. And I think once we start to shift that, that’s actually where it gets to an exciting space where everyone feels ownership over creativity or feels they can do it. And it’s not about comparison. It’s really like this is, we’re using these tools and materials to actually express what we are actually is coming from us. And a lot of my research was actually, you know, a lot of people do see themselves separate from the environment. They don’t understand that they’re actually part of the environment and part of the ecosystem.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:05:33]:
So that, to me, was also important and about our relationship. And, you know, I live actually out of the city. I live an hour and a half out of Sydney in the Blue Mountains, in the world Heritage area. So my whole physical and sense of awareness of my immediate surroundings is very different to people that are living in the city and urban areas. But, you know, that disconnection, which I found through with my students, was quite, actually frightening about how disconnected people are. And I was saying that just because you live in an urban area doesn’t mean you have to be disconnected physically or even yourself and your connection to being in nature. Because the students feel like they live in urban areas. They don’t even have greenery or living things.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:06:14]:
I actually talked to them about even salad, like, that’s a living thing and came from the ground, but you don’t know if you buy it from a supermarket, you know, and out of a fridge. So even these kind of things were quite interesting for them about where they even felt they didn’t really have connection to the living world. When we had a section in the science program about living things, it was. Yeah, it was interesting.
Cyndi Burnett [00:06:37]:
Speaking of your science program, can you tell us a bit more about how you’re teaching art making to primary school teachers for science communication, which I thought was really interesting.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:06:48]:
Yeah. And it was really interesting, the results, because I think even the students were surprised about what they were able to create. And in a university setting, you know, and it was still kind of post COVID, where some classes are online or they have time away. So when it comes to physical art making, we actually didn’t have a lot of physical classes together. And I’m really impressed about what they took in and what they followed up in their coursework on their own to actually create what they did, because they had to do a live presentation and they could use any media, they had certain science themes, and they had to choose for their final projects. Then they had five minute presentations, but it was about collaboration, so they had to work in small groups. So it did require some preparation and times for them to organize themselves and work out a concept and develop that together. But they actually physically presented it to me for assessment, and they made amazing.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:07:40]:
Like, some of them wrote songs together new songs, original songs. Some people made props and did theatrical presentations. Some people brought in ice blocks. It was about, you know, climate change and about showing kids about just how things melt and just, you know, it was very interesting about how they could actually make this more tangible, sort of abstract concepts to be more tangible. So it was even their creative thinking that was interesting. So not only about the art making. Some people came out of a sleeping bag as a caterpillar, and they had wings. And I thought that was kind of interesting about, you know, just knowing that you need that shape and what if I have to kind of create that kind of concept? But that was very effective.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:08:23]:
Do you know what I mean?
Matthew Worwood [00:08:23]:
I love these activities where you are challenged to express your knowledge in different ways. You know, we just had a great episode with Shafina a couple of weeks back where we was kind of talking about the use of Lego as a tool to express your knowledge of something in a new or different way. And, of course, you kind of really have to understand what it is you’re trying to express in order for you to do it effectively. And I’m just wondering, is the content coming from you, or is it coming from another teacher? Are you working in collaboration with someone in the sciences, or are you also teaching the sciences and just having them express it through more artistic endeavors?
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:09:01]:
So this program is only a few years old at the university, and so it was written by two practitioners. One was a science and one was an artist. But we actually didn’t find it actually melded as well as it could have. So it’s in a bit in development, but as a tutor, we actually presented them content about the science concepts that was developed by a scientist. We also bring in the artist, things like even van Gogh and about colour, a whole range of different aspects of science, and how it actually works with artists as well in the creative process. So there’s a lot of examples of that kind of thing. And, you know, the usual one is Leonard da Vinci, but, you know, there are other examples you use as well to show how they actually connect in terms of the way that science and art actually meet. And then it gave them the opportunity to look at some of those examples to then actually do their own art making.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:09:51]:
But they were just shocked about what they’re capable of. Some of them, when we did the rounds back, a lot of science people, in particular, the young people, they didn’t do art because I was so science and maths focused. And that’s like me. I just did art and history. I didn’t really focus on those other knowledge bases. And so then we had extreme people then who were really into the art, but then they said, as a primary school teacher, you have to be a generalist. So, you know, they were more in the art, but then their science knowledge wasn’t very strong, so it was very interesting. We had a mixture of that in the class, so I think people found it very interesting.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:10:25]:
There were two camps, extreme camps of uncomfortability. You’re either in the arts and you don’t know the science very well, or you’re in the science thing. And this art making is kind of really uncomfortable, getting your hands dirty, even. I brought in some just natural plants for observation, drawing, and doing some ink and artwork from that. And I said, pick them up. And, like, some of them just were going. Just picking up and touching and feeling that I’m seeing. The whole experience was actually quite foreign to some of them.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:10:56]:
It’s like it was actually an unusual request to make to them. Like, let’s pick up something and feel it and touch it and. Yeah.
Matthew Worwood [00:11:03]:
And, Carol, just to pick up on the interdisciplinary piece, do you think that’s part of the challenge and why sometimes it can be difficult to work across different subjects is the fact that we have different vocabularies and maybe different ways of being within these subjects? And if so, what are some of the ways that you’ve been able to kind of build those bridges?
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:11:20]:
Yeah, well, I think it’s a lot about, again, the fear of learning something new. So, you know, when we’re talking about that space and how we move across them, we have to be open to say, okay, it’s about a self limiting belief, right? Like, I didn’t think I could ever learn about that, or, I’m not like that, or, I don’t like science. You know, we say all these things, or I’m not creative. And so once we kind of can remove that kind of mindset and saying, okay, I’m here in a growth mindset to actually be willing to say, I want to understand how that can actually move across. And there is different vocabulary. So it’s just about learning the vocabulary of how we actually talk about that. And I was actually quite conscious of that in the classroom. I actually asked them, what do they think the arts is? And people are very limited even about that.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:12:07]:
I use in my own coaching work and my own research and in the classroom, mind mapping. I find mind mapping really useful, as we know, in learning. But that was a really good concept for them to say, you know, this is the arts. And then they realized, you know, there’s fashion, there’s film, there’s actually sculpture, you know, design. And everything around us is actually designed by someone, you know. So it’s not just something that’s contained in a classroom with a paintbrush. So I kind of try to really blow it out, which actually, you know, is a bit destabilizing for people to realize that even the chair you’re sitting on, everything, your desk, you use, the pens, everything around you is designed by someone and is about someone having an original idea, or it’s everything we drive books, everything is designed, you know, so that’s what I’m saying about in everyday life. People think it’s in this silo.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:12:59]:
So I think the more that we can actually shift our thinking to that, it’s quite important. And that, yeah, I mean, the school curriculum here in Australia, and I’m not sure in the states, but it’s still very siloed. And this is why it’s quite important that we start to think about how all these things actually interconnect. So my teaching’s based a lot on that. And people are actually surprised then, about. They get into a much more comfortable space more quickly because people, they’ve either had this perception that things are over here, but they’re in this space where they realise that they’re actually quite connected. Once you point that out, like, you know, I use the example even when you get up in the morning, like, you decide on whatever mood you are that might be that color or that particular garment that you want to put together, and then you decide, I need to put something that goes with that. Now, I’ve talked to my husband as a male, and he goes, no, I just throw that on.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:13:49]:
But I said, you still actually decide which clothing. So it could be the colour or your favorite things. That’s about making creative decisions and, you know, visual aesthetics. And my. Our place is Mexicans. Like, every wall is a different color. Everyone thinks, oh, my God. It’s like, most houses are, like, mute grey or whatever.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:14:07]:
But, you know, even dishes, you have. I have handmade things from potter friends of mine. It’s everything. It’s like when you go to a cupboard about which dish you pick up, and it’s like, it’s a different color. Today. I want to use this. So, you know, that’s when. During COVID it’s like, I was thinking of different ways that you could actually.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:14:24]:
Yeah. Bring all that kind of thing into your life.
Cyndi Burnett [00:14:27]:
Okay, Cheryl, I want to talk a little bit more about interdisciplinary studies. And it’s not something we’ve really talked about on the show, Matt. And I think that it’s fascinating to think about bringing the arts and science together and creating stuff. You mentioned something in a brief passing that was something didn’t work, and we have to improve on it. Now as researchers, which the three of us are, I think it’s very easy to do research going out with a hypothesis that something is going to be a certain way. It doesn’t. And those go into the folder of doom, of underneath our desk in hopes that someday we might pull it out and reference it for some reason. But I think there’s such a missed opportunity in those things that don’t work as much as those things that do work.
Cyndi Burnett [00:15:11]:
So in doing this work that you’ve been doing, I would love to know from you what’s something that didn’t work that you need to rethink and re improve.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:15:18]:
I think it’s about unpacking that whole thing about what we think the science is and what we think art is. Because, you know, even when we expanded the mind map on science, they realized it was so much more that even science was actually about light and photography, about even then watching a film, all that kind of thing is like that awareness of things that young people are doing, like in everyday life. They don’t realize that that’s science not actually happening when they’re watching a film. Even gaming, designing, you know, and visuals, things like that. What I’ve experienced, even growing up here in Australia, I was born here. But the whole notion of western art and even color theory, we’re bound by certain things that we don’t ever know are actually existing. I challenged that even when I was actually at art school about non western art theory. I’ve lived around the world in different countries, and even when I went to art school, I was told that red and green don’t go.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:16:14]:
And I said, well, even when I was in my twenties and younger, I go to the chinese temple and they’re red and green. We’re coming from a very interesting space when we talk about what we think constructs of certain things are. And so when I think the science people got shocked when I said it’s not just about experimenting or even, like, testing and, you know, in the cells and for the arts people, that’s what they thought science was. You just think about high school and you’re looking through the microscopes or cutting up the rat or whatever. They didn’t actually related to things. Yeah, like, I’m saying even some of you that live in a flat have a plant, or you can actually grow vegetables. You don’t have to have a big plot of land and be out of the city. You can actually do it there and have boxes and, you know, that’s a blowout for them to think, oh, I can do that kind of thing.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:17:03]:
You know what I mean? So that’s why I feel this kind of, yeah, it’s a self limiting belief or this thinking or where we get these notions of, we can’t do that. And that’s what I’m really challenging people in. What I’m interested in, too. You know, in the community arts center that I teach at, we have people that are 99 that are printmakers. They’re my next set of interviews about what it is about. And she’s like a five year old child. She’s full of curiosity, you know, just about creativity. And as you know, like, and this is what I’m understanding and trying to tell people is that when we thought that, you know, creativity was on the right side of the brain, creativity is probably the most exciting activity that you can be involved in, in life, you know, because it actually is such a, you’re using all your complex neural pathways, and it’s right and left in a whole range of connections.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:17:51]:
And when it comes to resilience, see, I think it’s really important that people understand that creativity is one of the key pillars to actually help people navigate uncertainty in a world that everyone wants certainty. And see, I went to a talk even with printmakers the other day, and printmakers said they love the part about when you make a print and you don’t know what’s going to be there. It’s the excitement of reveal of the press. And again, like you’re saying about things, planning things, you can plan things in art making, have the materials all there and planned on the table, but then what comes out is totally unpredictable, and it’s about play, you know? So the result is, yeah, you get the artwork on a piece of paper, but the results on there are also different. It’s like, even, you know, there’s a lot of commercial things now we have where people want to explore their creativity, so they go and have the wine and sip, and even if they’ve got the same picture in front of them, right, or painting the same thing, they’ll obviously come out differently. Do you know what I mean? So I think people think it looks the same, but it’s not because everyone puts it on differently in the paint and the strokes. And, you know, even the composition or things are smaller or larger. But, you know, those individual differences is quite important about that uniqueness of the way that translates.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:19:03]:
And I think there’s not enough investigation. I’ve got a 21 year old daughter, and even as an arts educator observing her primary school, when a teacher said to her at Easter, you know, you got to colour in your rabbits on a page, and it’s preset drawing. But, you know, the teacher says to her, all rabbits are white. You know, it’s like, I do find.
Matthew Worwood [00:19:25]:
The colour thing really fascinating, though, because even when you’re talking about that paint and sip, my initial thought is that if it’s a tree, most people probably have, like, you know, using some type of brown for the tree trunk and green or perhaps another color if it’s associated with the full foliage. But, you know, like, occasionally you do get this random, I’m gonna use red or I’m gonna use pink, or I’m gonna. And it does type stand out. And even with my colleagues at the University of Connecticut, I’m definitely gonna go away and think a little bit more about the color theory, because, you know, there’s the color wheel, for example, and there’s certain colors, like red is danger, is romance. Right? And I never thought about the fact that actually, that might be a western perspective of red. And outside of the western world, there may be other perspectives. And so, again, arts, not my field.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:20:16]:
And also, too, just as an artist, I’m actually involved in a project about planetary health. And so, you know, planetary health is about interdisciplinarity and the way the ecosystem works. And so when I think back, probably even historically, even in some western art, and also chinese art in particular, it was about the harmony of nature and people. You know what I mean? And so I’m actually investigating this theme and about how does that shift now in the way that we actually perceive ourselves in the physical world, but in our relationship to environment? Because there was a lot of things, yeah. Even in western painting, where that depicted those kind of scenes. But now we’re kind of in a very different space in the way. Yeah. So I’m actually looking at that because I want to see how even visually, you can demonstrate those shifts and changes, but also from a different perspective.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:21:07]:
So even I said to my colleagues when we were presenting what we’re going to do in art making, for one thing, I said, I actually want to use a vertical format in western. Again, we’re used to using a landscape, traditional chinese art. It’s on a scroll, and it’s this way. So it’s really just even shifting your perspective about what we’re used to do, you know what I mean, is quite important. And also, too, just, you know, when we’re talking about art education, that’s what I find interesting because I also teach painting as well as printmaking. And printmaking is a good thing to making marks and just trying to create a language. And it’s very organic. But, you know, painting, again, is that when you ask a child or even someone to paint a tree, they’ll paint what they think is a tree or person.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:21:52]:
It’s usually the stick figure. But if you say actually draw what you actually see, that’s a very different concept. And I’ll see that the leaves aren’t all the same and that leaves come in different sizes and all of them aren’t green. And they might have be green and brown depending on the time of the year. But there’s some great thinkers in drawing, which in terms of theorists about all the way the zenith seeing, that’s a drawing book, but, you know, that tells you to just go outside and actually observe what a tree looks like, and it won’t be a stick figure. And it’s different to the different perspective that you’re actually on. Someone who’s drawing it from the back or the side will have a very different perspective. You know, it’s like the whole thing about the metaphor about the elephant, you know, when you ask people to touch a different part of the elephant and what does it feel like? You know, someone’s holding onto the tail, someone’s holding onto the trunk.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:22:41]:
You know, it’s that kind of concept. And I think that’s where we don’t investigate enough about visual literacy, about seeing and connecting, you know, and a lot when you go, you know, some people encourage to pull a picture off the Internet and paint it. And, you know, when I went into the community, I said, we just get rid of that. You need to start finding pictures or things, objects, or just photography on your iPhone that you connect with. And you have a sense of place and connection. Do you know what I mean? Because even when you’re doing the technical side of things, it’s like you’re just putting paint on a canvas. You know, there’s no emotional connection.
Cyndi Burnett [00:23:18]:
Well, Sher, I’ve spent a lot of my career working on a set of creative thinking skills to help bridge the gap between artists and scientists, because I think they do work in their own silos. And I think there’s so much they can learn from each other. So for those of you interested who are listening, I’ll link that skill sheet. There’s 20 different creative thinking skills that I use to help bridge that language because I think a lot of what Cheryl’s talking about in terms of keeping open and curious and looking at things from multiple perspectives and mindfulness are all skills that we can relate to and use this language as we speak to one another to help really understand what creativity is and how we can use it as we work across disciplines.
Matthew Worwood [00:24:05]:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, curiosity to create.
Cyndi Burnett [00:24:13]:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.
Matthew Worwood [00:24:24]:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.
Cyndi Burnett [00:24:39]:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org comma or check out the links in the show notes for this episode. So Cheryl, can you tell us how you are using the 17 sustainable development goals with teachers in Australia?
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:24:54]:
I’m really excited because about a year ago I got invited to join the United Nations association of Australia. So it’s kind of a chapter that we have in our state. And so I’m actually working on the what we call the school day program. It’s an education program and we’re a team of volunteers, different skills and we’ve designed a program which actually is called the Global Changemakers Program. It actually targets all schools in our state at primary and secondary level and independent private schools. And I’ve come on as an arts advisor to promote the 17 Un sustainable development goals, but using creative based activity. So we support the school and it’s actually probably better this year. Last year we were trying to design it and deliver it.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:25:37]:
This year now we’ve got the package and we started quite early introducing just even un concepts and the UN and the work they’re doing. And now we actually have a series of webinars where we bring speakers in at different times, but then we actually build up their capacity and skills to say, by the end of the year, let’s do a presentation or project that’s based on that and they can choose any of the goals, or it could be a combination of some of the goals. But last year we had two amazing projects from our state and we had a big event, a youth event and a human rights event where we incorporated the awards and they’re called the Global Change Makers Awards. And one school actually got two shipping containers. And there’s a place in New South Wales in the state I live in in Australia. Some of it was probably a national story, had major floods, like the whole town was actually went under. So, you know, the resources, not only cultural infrastructure, but social infrastructure and housing is still recovering. So this school actually made a shipping container and they actually made a knowledge center inside and they actually made resources for Lismore kids and community and schools.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:26:51]:
And they actually painted the container and actually sent it up to Lismore right in our state. And then they also reached the poorest school in the world and they found it was in this really small village in India, and they also did the same. So they painted the shipping container and actually developed resources and educational resources from the kids about the 17 goals and actually sent it over. Then we had another school who also won an award, who created a song. So they actually worked across some primary and high school and they developed a song. We actually then used it as a bit of an anthem at the event as well. Some of the kids came to the awards and they sent a recording of it. They took it to their.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:27:34]:
It was really impressed because they have to give a little five minute video about how they made and the steps and everything. They actually took it to their local member of parliament, local politician, and actually played it for them and kind of worked on it in a local level and promoted it. And then it’s gone to a higher level. But, you know, just realising that kids can actually use the simple tools of words and music and integrating other things they’re learning at school into this one project. And yeah, last year we had a big brainstorm. We thought, you know, how can we engage teachers more? How can we know they’re under resourced and overworked, which I’m sure it’s probably in the states. And so we then also incorporated the design thinking framework, which is part of the curriculum, and actually put that together as well. So we have someone who’s a specialist in that, who actually has a webinar and said, this is the way you can apply it in this context and to use it for your project.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:28:28]:
So we’re really trying to build teachers capacities as well, but also too, just as global citizens, I think, as professionals, so, you know, you can get qualifications and other information in professional development as a teacher with our program. So we’re very excited and all the time we’ve got new partners coming in and the way we can even make that space exciting. But it’s also how it translates to starting off as young people about how we start to be more active citizens and think about sustainability issues in our own life and also in society. Yeah, so it has, you know, it’s quite ambitious and it has many levels, but we think it’s kind of interesting way to. Yeah, build capacity and I guess, skills about life skills and the way we think about things. And it’s in exactly the critical thinking and also creative thinking and how that can be applied, just not in a specific container but across. Yeah, that’s where the interdisciplinarity where, you know, people, it’s quite a big chunk to bite, but it actually can be quite exciting if we can facilitate and navigate people in that space.
Matthew Worwood [00:29:34]:
Just out of curiosity, because I want to say it was a few seasons ago, I kind of went off on a couple of tangents about sustainability and climate change. How well do you think we’re doing in education in terms of cultivating a future generation that are working toward designing solutions to really complex problems? What are we doing well and what are we not doing well when it comes to those complex problems around sustainability and climate change?
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:30:03]:
Well see, that’s why I think I’ve got a bit of a shock about tertiary level age students, people in their nineteen s, twenties, twenty four, I think the, the primary and the secondary school probably kids are actually much more active and actually have a language to talk about it. When we did that science and artist teacher, I was shocked about a lot of them didn’t even know a lot of things. Many things we would. Well, I guess I assumed that these people would know their sense of the world generally. It wasn’t very high and their awareness. So that’s where I think it’s a problem because it’s not a big community or global issue. They can’t even see their lives. That’s what I mean.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:30:44]:
Those issues when I was talking to them about did you think about how you go to the supermarket and you can actually go and get any fruit you like from any time of the year? And that’s not a normal situation, you know, that’s a kind of a construct, but that’s that generation, that’s what they do. They don’t even think about where that food comes from and they think that we can’t grow it in the city or we can’t even, you know, like just there, there’s a whole disconnect on a physical level and a conceptual level. So that’s where I think it’s problematic. And that’s why, you know, I think anybody that in any, I think life scores, you know, we have to start young. We have to start from the very beginning as a core pillar of our education, because trying to do it later, you know, it takes a lot of backtracking. We have some, obviously internationally, a lot of young people who are twenties who are starting to be leaders in climate change, but, you know, they’re pretty far and few between. You don’t find many people that age who are articulate in that way. Like, I even use my daughter, who’s 20.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:31:45]:
I don’t think she has a great sense of that. Even though we’ve lived a more international life, she has some sense, but on an individual level, and people her age that she hangs around with, I can tell they don’t talk about those things or they’re caring or they’re understanding is not very high. So that’s why I think the way we have to build things in, you know, you can’t wait for a sustainability subject to come up or choose it as an elective in tertiary level. It must be the foundation of a range of things. And that’s why I think it’s up to educators to be more interdisciplinary because whatever you teach, there is a touch point in which you can bring that in. So. Yeah, and because you find, you know, it’s like creativity in education. You know, you’re in a tribe with like minded people, but you kind of go out of that circuit, you realize, oh, people aren’t thinking like that.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:32:30]:
It’s the same with sustainability. You know, I live well, that’s what I mean. You live in a world heritage area. And even when I’ve done research and consultancies, it is a bit of a shock. It doesn’t belong to us still, or it only belongs to people in certain who are growing their vegetables. International Women’s Day kind of points out a few things, too, about this thing, about inclusion and access, about the way that as people are these people part of our tribe, are we actually helping people to understand whatever passion we have, to understand how to get entry point into our discussion and make the circle bigger. And I think that’s really important. So that’s why, you know, when I talk about everyday life, it’s right now, even this dress I’ve got on is actually an idea from my neighbor’s, a dressmaker.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:33:17]:
I had this idea that I want a dress made of different cultures. And so this is an aboriginal, australian aboriginal design, you know, someone wearing it. And so it’s like, you know, that creates a conversation, you know, so. And, yeah, during COVID when I was in the house, I was thinking, what are all the ways that you can actually have some encounter of creativity? Some people laughed at me the other day because I just have a window where there was a lot of shadows of trees and it was projecting, it was like a light projection on my cupboard. I actually did a short video of that. It was just, I woke up the other day and there were these things moving on my cupboard like it was a film, so I filmed it. But, you know, your whole sense of awareness when you, you don’t have to go outside into a bigger open space, you can have these interesting encounters. I did a lot of shadow things from just in the house when I was during COVID That’s how my creative traveller foodie Instagram started, because I love cooking and I was plating up and I was using colour.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:34:11]:
And that’s become a life of its own people, you know, I was finding different ways that you could actually be creative in the house. Yeah. And that’s where that concept of every day came from.
Cyndi Burnett [00:34:22]:
Well, Cheryl, we have to wrap up, but we end every episode with three tips that you would give to educators. So what tips would you provide?
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:34:32]:
I think about not being scared to step out of your discipline, especially as primary teachers, where I think you are journalists, not to be scared about the different ways that you can actually bring some of those different subject areas together. And same if you’re actually a secondary teacher and even in a specialty area, you’ll find that when we did the matrix of the way that science and art fitted together, it was actually quite interesting about even having a matrix that you can actually just look up and go, okay, these are the areas I can focus on that actually connect. So it’s just, again, about the growth mindset. Not to be scared to step in new language, new knowledge bases, but also to, to actually grow ourselves and actually explore. So I never recommend anything I haven’t tried myself. So it’s a lot of fun when I take up challenges and see things and think, okay, how can we start to experiment in the way that we involve or incorporate things in our daily life? And that’s like, yeah, so, you know, my dress is just one example and then my cups are made by friends who are potters. And so when people come, they go, oh my God, you made that cup. And they realize even what they’re drinking out of is made by someone.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:35:40]:
People just light up. It seems quite unimportant. But to me, any way that you can do that? Yeah. People realize that life can be different, and your interaction with art and creativity can be different. Yeah. So I just think, yeah, I’m a big, actually, do you know Michael Gilb? Yeah, I’m a big follower of him, and I think his principles that he’s distilled, the way that Leonard da Vinci approached life is something that I’m really keen and take up as a challenge, the way that you can actually incorporate those principles.
Cyndi Burnett [00:36:16]:
Well, Cheryl, thank you for this robust conversation. I know I have a lot to think about when it comes to interdisciplinary creativity and how we might look at the challenges that we face in different disciplines and look at ways that we might support one another. So thank you so much for coming onto the show. For those of you listening, if you like this episode and you have someone that you might want to collaborate with in an interdisciplinary way, you might want to share this episode with them and say, hey, why don’t we try something like this with our classrooms and work together and co teach something and see what might happen? Because I think the benefit of doing that is, as you said, Cheryl, you take the scientists and you show them some artistic ways to express their ideas, and you take the artists and you showcase their artistic preferences and artistic gifts and really hone in on that scientific inquiry and knowledge. So I think it’s such a beautiful.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:37:14]:
Connection, and I would just throw out.
Matthew Worwood [00:37:16]:
There, Cindy, I would also say that anyone who feels like an art teacher, I must admit, the concept of just looking at colors differently from other world perspectives, other than just that western colors perspective, definitely. I think that’s another reason to share this episode as well. So thanks so much, Cheryl, for coming on the show.
Cheryl Yin Lo [00:37:33]:
Thank you very much. It’s a great pleasure to meet you both, and thank you for the opportunity.
Cyndi Burnett [00:37:37]:
So my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.
Matthew Worwood [00:37:40]:
And my name is Doctor Matthew Werwood.
Cyndi Burnett [00:37:43]:
This episode was produced by Matthew Werwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create, and our editor is Sam Atkinson.
How might visual literacy foster everyday creativity and curiosity in students?
In this episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast, Drs. Matthew Worwood and Cyndi Burnett are joined by Dr. Cheryle Yin Lo, an expert in arts education and creativity, who shares her insights on the interconnectedness of art and science. Cheryl emphasizes the importance of visual literacy and the emotional connections that foster creativity, urging educators to incorporate these elements into their teaching. She discusses her involvement with the Global Changemakers Program at the United Nations Association of Australia, which aims to engage students in creative projects that address the UN’s sustainable development goals. Highlighting successful projects such as a knowledge center for flood relief and a song about sustainability, Cheryl underscores the need for creative approaches to solve global issues.
Cheryl challenges traditional educational norms by discussing non-western art theories and the integration of sustainability in various subjects. Through a spirited discussion with the hosts, the episode highlights how merging different disciplines can enhance students’ understanding and capabilities, preparing them to navigate an increasingly uncertain and interconnected world.
Guest Bio
Dr. Cheryl Yin Lo challenges traditional educational norms by discussing non-western art theories and the integration of sustainability in various subjects. Through a spirited discussion with the hosts, the episode highlights how merging different disciplines can enhance students’ understanding and capabilities, preparing them to navigate an increasingly uncertain and interconnected world.
Debrief Episode
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Podcast Sponsor

We are thrilled to partner with Curiosity 2 Create as our sponsor, a company that shares our commitment to fostering creativity in education. Curiosity 2 Create empowers educators through professional development and community support, helping them integrate interactive, creative thinking approaches into their classrooms. By moving beyond traditional lecture-based methods, they help teachers create dynamic learning environments that enhance student engagement, improve academic performance, and support teacher retention. With a focus on collaborative learning and exploration, Curiosity 2 Create is transforming classrooms into spaces where students thrive through continuous engagement and growth.