Maureen Carroll [00:00:00]:
A lot of when I would teach workshops, maybe pre pandemic, it was all about amping up the energy and having that creative passion and movement. And this time it felt more like what teachers need is that time that you just talked about, like, being able to reflect and slow down and really take care of themselves and think about wellness and social emotional components of learning. So yes, absolutely.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:27]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:29]:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:32]:
This is the fuelling creativity in Education podcast.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:35]:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the fields of education.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:42]:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:50]:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood [00:01:02]:
So let’s begin today.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:04]:
We welcome to the show Dr. Maureen Carroll. Maureen is the co founder of Lime Design and taught at Stanford’s Haso Platner Institute of Design, the D School, for over a decade. She was also the director of Redlab, which conducts research on design and learning, and was a lecturer in Stanford University’s Graduate School of Education. Prior to founding Lime Design, Carol was the co founder of Baby’s Educational Resources, a curriculum design firm that integrated content area learning with media, the arts, and popular culture. Welcome to the show, Maureen.

Maureen Carroll [00:01:41]:
Thanks, Cindy. Happy to be here.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:44]:
So, Maureen, we met a few months ago, and you started telling me about something called Creative Residencies for educators. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Maureen Carroll [00:01:54]:
Yeah, I started this program because I thought a lot about how teachers are being asked to teach creativity, but they’re not really doing things to foster their own creativity and brought this program to a wonderful superintendent in the San Mateo County Office of Education, Nancy McGee. And we talked a little bit about how right now it’s so important to elevate and celebrate teachers and thinking about how could that. So I wanted creativity to be something that the teachers could experience firsthand. So what I did is I brought together different artists. So we work with an improviser. We had a drummer, salsa person. We had a dancer painter, watercolor painting. And the teachers went through a chance to really have that opportunity to be creative.

Maureen Carroll [00:02:48]:
And it was kind of the last one we did was at a farm in Half Moon Bay and kind of a really beautiful setting that a lot of times teacher professional development is held at the school site. This was at a beautiful farm overlooking the ocean in Half Moon Bay at a place called Miramar Farms. And the teachers, when the program was over, I had a chance to interview the teachers. I wanted to see what this experience was like. And they just really talked about how having that space and time to really be creative, and it wasn’t about a lot of times in teacher PD, you immediately think about, okay, how can I bring this back to my students? This day was really more about the teachers. They were nurtured, the food was incredible, the time to think and reflect and be creative invited them to be in a different place. And then a few weeks later, when I interviewed them, they talked about how it just naturally evolved into they felt more refreshed, so they were able to bring things to their students, or they thought about how could they take some of these improv activities that they did and bring them back to their students. I think in all, it was a day of real gratitude and real time.

Maureen Carroll [00:03:56]:
And I think that the idea of creativity happening, you have to allocate that time and really give the space to be creative so that you can be rejuvenated yourself. And then that impacted who you are as a teacher and a person.

Cyndi Burnett [00:04:12]:
And did you find that this sort of restored their energy? Because we talk a lot about burnout with educators. Obviously, this is after the pandemic, and teachers are sort of burned out. They’re overwhelmed. Do you think giving them the space to sort of be and create and just breathe is a good path forward for them?

Maureen Carroll [00:04:33]:
Absolutely. And when I interviewed the teachers, when I was finished, that came across in every single interview about how they felt reenergized a lot of when I would teach workshops, maybe pre pandemic, it was all about amping up the energy and having that creative passion and movement. And this time it felt more like what teachers need is that time that you just talked about, like being able to reflect and slow down and really take care of themselves and think about wellness and social emotional components of learning. So, yes, absolutely.

Matthew Worwood [00:05:09]:
And if I was an administrator, listening to this show, is there certain types of the year that you would kind of suggest to have these types of experiences off site?

Maureen Carroll [00:05:21]:
That’s a good question. We’ve done them kind of at different points in the year. There’s something about, I mean, I think about all professional development. There’s something about doing it at the end of the school year in June, where then teachers can kind of marinate over the summer. But then there’s also something about a lot of teacher professional development happens in August, so that you kind of, like, prepare for the year and see what’s going to happen. I guess the only time that I wouldn’t think it would be great is in September where you have that like let me get used to my students and let me sort of get into those routines. There’s usually a break in October where a lot of professional development happens too. And also as you were talking about the snow happening a lot of times in the winter, what a lovely time to rejuvenate right after the holidays.

Maureen Carroll [00:06:09]:
And then you come into that like, okay, what else can I do for my students from January till when school is over? So I think there’s not a bad time. But yes, there are some times when you think about when will it be best for the teachers.

Matthew Worwood [00:06:22]:
And the reason why I asked that question is I’ve been thinking more and more about the academic year and when we as educators. So I don’t think it’s just k through twelve educators. I think all educators, there’s times where we are really kind of in the weeds and kind of just keeping our head above the water. And we might be super creative, we might have some great ideas, but the actual implementation and the development of those ideas, let’s be honest, it’s kind of tough because there’s so many deadlines that you’ve got fast approaching. There’s of course at the end of the year I think there is an opportunity to reflect and maybe set teachers up for some type of incubation over the summer. So as they kind of get toward ramping up for the new year, they’ve maybe able to identify some long term goals that they want to kind of embark on. And then of course I do feel there’s this incredible energy at the beginning of the academic year. And so tapping into that energy I think is helpful.

Matthew Worwood [00:07:22]:
I suppose I’m answering my question now to your point, I think there’s probably different times of the year when you want to run these, but I do think you might want to think about what are your goals for these events? Is it about giving respite for really kind of like challenging year? Is it about using an offsite experience to reflect on our success and challenges over the past year? Or is it really about setting us up to do something new and different for the impending new year?

Maureen Carroll [00:07:49]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it can be any of those things. And I also think that different teachers will come to it with different goals and leave with different goals too. So having that opportunity to think about maybe being energized as part of the day or the event makes you more excited to do things. And for other teachers, it’s like, you know what? I need to pause and think and think about how can this, what I’ve just learned, this reflection, help me be better teacher? One way. I think also that gets it. That idea, Matt, about when you’re in the weeds is the idea. Like, if you come with a team of teachers and you’ve all had that common experience, I think professional development, and this in particular gives you a chance to reach out to that person. Remember when we did this? Or do you remember how we felt when we finished that quiet time of watercolor painting or that high energy improv game we played together? So I think that’s one way that teachers have those different responses.

Matthew Worwood [00:08:45]:
So just follow up on that. My immediate thoughts is plcs. We’re using plcs more and more. And the basic background is, let’s put small groups of teachers together, and those small groups kind of take charge of their own professional growth and learning for the academic year. But I’ve noticed sometimes PlC time is really short. And so the teachers come in, maybe they’ve got 90 minutes to work. Sometimes it’s meant to be free time, but they’ve kind of got to cover a, B, and C in that time. So they don’t have that freedom to kind of explore and experiment with new ideas, have conversations that may be completely unrelated to something that the administration wants them to focus in on.

Matthew Worwood [00:09:24]:
And it seems to me these kind of experiences that you’re offering could be a really good way to build trust within your Plc, to do something totally disconnected from school. So you kind of set yourselves up for identifying new goals as a PLc, leveraging the relationships that you’ve developed from these experiences. So you kind of feel that you can take risks and share things that you might not otherwise share if you didn’t have those relationships.

Maureen Carroll [00:09:50]:
I absolutely agree. I think it’s really what you’re talking about is building a culture within a school where there is that trust, empathy for each other. And also, I think a lot we talk to our students about bringing your whole self to the classroom. And a lot of times when that doesn’t happen is when you don’t have that dedicated time to do that. And sometimes it happens when you have a snack break in the classroom or when you’re coming into the class or staying after talking to students or students talking to each other. A lot of times when we have a new class, sometimes the homework of a class is go do something fun with your teammates. When we put students in teams to work. And that sort of bonding, I think, can happen in the PLCs as well.

Maureen Carroll [00:10:35]:
For teachers, it’s slightly different than for students. But thinking about, I think what you’re saying, thinking about building those relationships, when you feel that way and you have that vulnerability and knowledge of who you are outside the classroom, then it opens up all those spaces to be creative because creativity is so much about risk taking. So I think that is absolutely true.

Cyndi Burnett [00:10:57]:
And Matt, you might want to share with our audience what PlC stands for.

Matthew Worwood [00:11:01]:
So professional learning communities, and as I said, the basic background probably many educators know, is it’s kind of like trying to move away from these one off workshops where, hey, we’ve got our PD. You move into a room for 90 minutes and you have someone presenting a topic that perhaps isn’t high up on your list of what you want to cover or what you think is most important for you and your students at that given time. So I think the basic transition toward PLCs is to provide teachers with more agency to pursue the professional goals that they want to pursue as a group. And to your point, Maureen, the risk taking, the trust, I think it’s really important because certainly when I’ve interacted with teachers who engage in plCs, they really do see it as a community of colleagues where they can kind of share ideas and share failures and get feedback.

Cyndi Burnett [00:11:54]:
And so much of what you’re talking about, Maureen, reminds me of our episode with James Kaufman where he talked about the benefits of creativity and the healing aspect and feeling good about the wellness, the whole person that he talked about in that episode. And so I think it’s wonderful that you do these creative residencies, and we’ll make sure we put a link to those in the show notes.

Matthew Worwood [00:12:24]:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, curiosity to create.

Cyndi Burnett [00:12:33]:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

Matthew Worwood [00:12:44]:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:12:59]:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode. So Maureen, one of the other programs that you offer which I found really intriguing and something Matt and I haven’t talked about at all is social studies in the making. So creativity and social studies, can you tell us a bit about that.

Maureen Carroll [00:13:21]:
When the pandemic hit, I thought it was an opportunity to think about, what are the other possibilities that I can kind of rediscover? And my graduate degree is in literacy. So I started thinking about, what does literacy look like? And typically, in a lot of literacy classrooms, you read a text and then you talk about it or you write about it. And I started to think about how might we broaden those notions of literacy? And so designed something called literacy in the making. And the goal was to build literacy skills, social emotional skills, and maker skills. The social emotional skills were really about how to get students and teachers to talk about a text and really go deeper into what were the emotions behind that. And what happened is, a lot of times, students and teachers could talk about feelings they had vicariously through the character. So we picked books that had really powerful themes like empathy or risk taking, resiliency, compassion, lots of, really themes that you could dig deeply into the emotions behind that. And then we thought about, how does making open up new possibilities for expressing your understanding of a text? So we work directly with students in this program.

Maureen Carroll [00:14:38]:
We’ve worked with teachers, and the teachers go through the program as though they were the students, and then we sort of support them in creating their own literacy and the making activities and then making opened up this whole other way of understanding. And I collaborate with a museum maker educator that had wonderful activities. And then we started thinking, okay, what about social studies? Because a lot of times, the focus in classrooms is on literacy. We thought, how can we evolve this into social studies? In the. We did, the first time we launched this, it was with a high school in Dallas, and the teachers. And we use picture books. And typically in high schools, teachers are not using picture books with their students. And we had teachers from all different departments.

Maureen Carroll [00:15:21]:
It was not just teachers who were teaching history. And what we found is the same kind of emotional resonance happened. We sort of modeled, like, how do you stop with a lot of students? You’ll ask a question and they’ll answer it, and they think you’re done. And so what we tried to do is, can you tell me more about that? Sort of go down a why ladder and think about, well, why do you think that? And then maybe ask another student, what do you think about what this student said? So that we modeled that dialogue, because talking about emotions, sometimes even our vocabulary is limited. So we tried to think about how could we use, like, feeling wheels that showed all these different ways to express emotion. And then the maker activity, again, would complement, how do you understand the text? So that’s something I’m really excited about bringing out more in the world, because I think about Elliot Eisner’s work, talking think across multiple symbol systems, that informed my graduate work. That had a really powerful impact, like, how do we express ourselves through different symbol systems, whether it’s music or art or language? And I think that thread kind of always runs through when I’m designing activities and materials, because I really think it’s important as a thinker to have that broadness. At the D school, we talk about t shaped people, and that means usually, like, you have deep expertise in one area, but you’re able to think broadly, like, across the top of a t.

Maureen Carroll [00:16:48]:
And I think that resonates with Elliot Eisner’s idea of symbol systems. And also thinking about, as an educational designer, when you’re designing creative activities, how can you make sure that there’s spaces to represent what you’re learning through those different symbol systems?

Matthew Worwood [00:17:06]:
But I have to say, I think it’s also because you have a background in design. I see a relationship with empathy and understanding the needs of whether you want to refer to it as users or an audience through the text, trying to imagine what are the feelings driving the behaviors that we’re observing in this story. And to your point, with the feeling, will, what are the other ways those feelings might be expressed? And just, again, it’s just about trying to better understand other people. And of course, within social studies, I think there’s opportunities to understand how other groups have behaved and acted and interacted with each other throughout society. So I kind of really enjoy that empathy piece being integrated into the social studies class in the way that you’ve done, as well as bringing in the making aspect.

Maureen Carroll [00:17:58]:
I think about when I was in graduate school, I was a qualitative researcher, so I had to learn to be an ethnographer to think about how to do these interviews. And at the time, I learned to do it so that I could do my research for my research. But it had this learning I learned from wonderful professors who taught me, how do you do this? And then how do you look at that data? But it ended up being really important in the work moving forward, because as a designer, as you said, you have to have that empathy, and you have to sort of know how to ask questions that go beyond those surface answers and really connect with the person you’re interviewing and be really curious. Like, I want to know, I know what my experience is, but I want to know what’s your experience? And I think, so that empathy does shape not only the interviews or the social studies in the making, but the way you are as a designer and a facilitator when you work with teachers.

Cyndi Burnett [00:18:57]:
So can you tell us how we can bring that aspect? Because I know empathy is a big topic in education right now, how we can bring those types of strategies and exercises into the classroom to help teachers teach their students to be more empathetic.

Maureen Carroll [00:19:12]:
Yeah, I think kind of a great way to do that is when you’re reading a book, maybe even a longer book, have the students take on the Persona of the character and then interview each other and maybe do that as a model in the classroom so the students see that. Or maybe you sort of pass the interview questions off to someone else. A lot of times we’ll set up groups where there’s a main interviewer and then there’s a backup interviewer, because sometimes the interviewer, there’s a question, like, you may have that someone didn’t ask, but I think being able to do that also goes back to Matt’s point about learning about how other people think, because questions you might ask might be different. And also that way you kind of integrate some of the content. Right? You’re learning about, maybe you’re reading a content book about someone, maybe a historical fiction or something that gives you an opportunity to really put yourself in that person’s shoes. Another activity I think really gets at that is sort of taking something you’re learning a person you’re learning about and doing a day in the life. So you walk in someone else’s shoes and you imagine, what is that like to what happens when they wake up? Where do they go? Did they take a train? Did they walk? Did they take a bus? And then the third activity that I really have loved doing is I have these old photographic boxes. And I went around my house and kind of went in junk drawers and threw a bunch of different things, ticket stubs and keys and maybe photographs and filled them.

Maureen Carroll [00:20:38]:
We called them empathy boxes. And then we would give a group of students an empathy box and ask them to tell a story about using those artifacts as a springboard for empathy and understanding. And what happened is a lot of times stories about themselves came out, and then you sort of have that empathy, and they’re sharing it in a group. So they’re learning about. They kind of made up the story, but it brings out a lot about themselves as well, because we can’t think of empathy as not being just something you give to somebody. Empathy is like a relationship, right? A transaction, not, I’m just going to give you empathy. It’s created together.

Matthew Worwood [00:21:14]:
I know I’m bouncing around all over the place right now, but I suspect that there are people right now listening to this podcast who are kind of reevaluating some of their activities now that we’re dealing with generative AI, particularly maybe around journal assignments and short papers. And I just feel that some of these activities could provide new avenues to conduct formative and summative assessments. And just to add some additional pieces on that, I could see some of these turning into short podcast episodes, for example, because I’ve been playing around with podcasts with my students, and if you’ve got some kind of content knowledge that you want, it sounds to me that they kind of have to have an understanding of if you facilitate it well and design it well, they probably have to go and engage, for example, with a text, get some content knowledge about the situation or the person. And then what you could do as part of these kind of interviews is you actually do have the capacity to kind of allow them to kind of then have some fun and play with it and engage their imagination as they utilize that knowledge and maybe bring it to a real world environment. And then perhaps you can capture it through a podcast interview. And of course, now with podcast interviews, it’s so easy to get transcriptions of those interviews, but also you could have the students listen to their interviews and then potentially write some reflective papers on that as well. So I think the key point is that there’s so much here that you’re sharing, Maureen, around how we can approach learning within social studies, but also kind of engaging the imagination, engaging empathy, and getting really creative as teachers as we go about facilitating those.

Maureen Carroll [00:22:54]:
Mean another. I think building on that idea is the idea of using music. I think about one of the activities that I found has been really powerful is introducing this idea of music. There is a song called father and son that Kat Stevens wrote. And in the story in the song, it’s really kind of about a father talking about what he hopes for the son and the son talking about what he hopes for the father. So there’s kind of this conflict and tension between them. So what I did is I had a group listen to this song and kind of split the room in half and had one half of the room listen as though they were the father from the father’s perspective, the other from the son’s perspective. And then I had them stop and write postcards, sort of asking, what did you want your father to know? What did you want your son to know.

Maureen Carroll [00:23:42]:
And then after they wrote these postcard posts, we joined. You had to sign a find a pair. So father and son pair would come together and they would read the postcards to each other. And that exercise, I think my hunch is that the addition of music, because it was so powerful, listening kind of brought like a little bit of tears to the room. It was sort of a really powerful learning experience. But really what it was about is like, can I understand your point of view? So how can empathy become really concrete through someone else’s experience? And then the debrief of that exercise was really powerful. It gave people a chance to think about, how am I, as you just said, as a listener, like, what role does listening play in this creative part.

Cyndi Burnett [00:24:24]:
Of it that is so lovely? And I hadn’t thought about empathy before, but how much it connects with looking at things from different perspectives, which we talk mostly about in the creativity literature, and those connections between seeing things in different perspectives and empathy. Now, before we got started on this interview, Matt asked Maureen if she wanted to talk about design thinking, which Matt has a background in design thinking, and Maureen has obviously a background in design thinking. And I don’t have a strong background in design thinking. I come from the creative problem solving world here in Buffalo. But I think Matt brought up a really great question. So I’m going to pose it to both of you, which is, is design thinking dead? Which is an article that has recently come up and people have been talking about it. But I would love to hear both of your perspectives. Do you think design thinking is dead or dying, or do you think it’s going to stick around for a little while?

Maureen Carroll [00:25:19]:
I do not think that. I think design is a really powerful way of looking at the world, a way of being in the world. And I think teachers are designers. They’re designing curriculum, they’re designing their relationships, they’re designing the future. And I believe that, because I think design is more about Laura McBain and I. Laura is the co director of the D school at the moment, and Laura and I wrote an article called beyond the hexagons. And I think what we were getting at is, as a lockstep methodology, maybe design thinking, which had at one time had six steps, then five steps. But I think sometimes that comment comes up because I think a deeper understanding really means design is about mindsets, it’s about abilities, it’s about the things that underlying the process.

Maureen Carroll [00:26:11]:
And I don’t think that will ever change, because it’s about empathy, it’s about risk taking. It’s about creativity. It’s about resiliency, about building things and seeing what works, and really about being human centered. And I don’t think that’s ever going to go away.

Matthew Worwood [00:26:28]:
Yeah, I kind of agree with what Maureen said. I mean, I’ve always been at times, reluctant to use the word design thinking, primarily because I’m aware that design thinking without judgment is quite often associated, particularly in the business world, with the D school and ideo and that particular methodology, those particular steps, and even, cindy, with creative problem solving. Right. There’s all these different steps that I don’t know, what are we on to? Close to 100 years now. If you think about the art of thought, which I think was published in 1926, trying to work out what are the steps to producing these creative outcomes? And we kind of see it as when we’re engaged in a deliberate process of trying to do something creative, this is what is effective. But for me, there are certain principles that I’ve seen within the field of design that are well captured within the methodologies of places like ideo and the D school. But to your point, Maureen, those principles often around empathy, human centered design. We live in a world now where we can get a tremendous amount of data about a situation, lots of data, about how people interact with products, obviously, quite often digital products, and why wouldn’t we continue to utilize that data to better understand how our ideas are being interpreted, how our initial prototypes are being used, making adjustments based on that data? And for me, I think that’s a significant aspect of design thinking, those principles.

Matthew Worwood [00:28:07]:
So if we see as are there different methodologies, has new methodologies evolved? Is there new interpretations and modifications, then yes, maybe you could say, all right, this particular way of approaching creative thinking has died off. It’s less popular. Maybe it will come back in 1015 years, but the principles remain the same. And we see principles with divergent thinking and convergent thinking in creative problem solving as well. So I think it’s about the principles, and I don’t think they’ll ever go away.

Cyndi Burnett [00:28:34]:
That was really useful. Thank you to both of you for giving that background. And I think what it reminds me of is how I feel about creative problem solving, which is, it’s really beneficial to be trained in one of these problem solving methodologies, because it helps you. Not when you go through that. You’re going to bring out this deliberate process and maybe go through each step in a deliberate way when you’re learning it, yes, but that it becomes a part of who you are, so you become naturally empathetic that you naturally go out and think like an ethnographer because that’s what you’re trained to do. And I feel the same way about creative problem solving is that most times I don’t bring out the postits and go, let’s clarify the problems, generate ideas. But what I do is I think in ways that I’m deferring judgment and keeping open and trying to come up with lots of ideas before I converge.

Maureen Carroll [00:29:22]:
Yeah, I agree, Cindy. I think it becomes part of how you think, the way you approach the world. But one thing I think really resonates, and I think the biggest picture of the whole thing is this idea of creativity. And thinking about creativity isn’t something that is only within you. Creativity, almost like creative agency, is something like, what am I going to do to make the world a better place or to solve problems in human centered ways that can come from any of those ways of thinking. Right. How can you be more human centered and solving problems? And how can you be more creative so that you can do something with this creativity?

Matthew Worwood [00:29:58]:
And I do want to add, there are situations where you wouldn’t necessarily apply a creative problem solving methodology or a design thinking methodology. Right. I think there’s lots of different ways to how we go and engage in the act of creating and the act of making. And certainly if we’re creating something for ourselves or we’re exploring a new idea, maybe we don’t even have a necessarily specific purpose or context to where we want to share that idea or share that outcome with the world, then maybe some of the principles that we’ve discussed around design thinking wouldn’t be relevant in that moment. And likewise, if you don’t have the time to go and interact with those end users and gather information about them, again, maybe the conditions aren’t right there for design thinking either. So to your point, Cindy, I think there’s value in learning or being trained in a particular process of creativity. I know in my design thinking class I often start off by saying, look, we’re going to touch on some principles of design thinking. But my hope is by the end of the semester, you’ve identified the strengths and weaknesses in your own approach to creativity, and I suspect that that approach will change based on context.

Cyndi Burnett [00:31:06]:
Well, Maureen, that wraps this conversation up, but before you go, we would love to hear, what are your three tips you would give to educators to bring creativity into the classroom?

Maureen Carroll [00:31:17]:
I would say the first one is really nurture your own creativity. I feel like the metaphor a lot of people talk about is filling up your own cup as it overflows. But I think really thinking about how can you take care of yourself by nurturing your own creativity. The second is, I think part of being creativity is sort of being curious about everything. And I think if you have that approach to the world as a learner, like you’re always being a lifelong learner, there’s so many things to know about, and there’s so many different areas to explore. And I think sometimes taking the time to broaden your horizons, however that may happen, and have that real curiosity about people, about ideas. And I think the third is be collaborative. As a lot of times, we think of creativity as this solitary pursuit.

Maureen Carroll [00:32:08]:
But there’s so much to be learned by interactions, like the best kind of brainstorms, where you have no idea whose idea this is because it evolved over the interactions and the rethinking and the reframing that happens when you interact in a group.

Matthew Worwood [00:32:23]:
Okay, well, Maureen, thank you so much for that. This has been fun. I think we’ve really covered lots of different things in this show, so we appreciate your patience as we kind of bounced around different topics. Now, Cindy and I have a quest for you. We are hoping to get some more reviews for our podcast. We think it’s a great podcast. Obviously, we’re biased, but if you can, and you agree with my statement, please write us a review. Take a screenshot of that review and send it to Cindy and I using the email questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com.

Matthew Worwood [00:32:54]:
And we will send you some of our free giveaways for the show. My name is Dr. Matthew Warwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:33:00]:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by Matthew Warwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create, and our editor is Sam Atkinson.