Season 7, Episode 4
Breaking Records and Igniting Creativity: Peter Wachtel’s Creative Approach to Education
Bring outside influences into the classroom; bring in a toy company for example, and showcase how English, Math, and Science is used in industry.
– Peter Wachtel
Hosts & Guests
Peter Wachtel’s
Cyndi Burnett
Matthew Worwood
Episode Transcription
Breaking Records and Igniting Creativity: Peter Wachtel’s Creative Approach to Education
Matthew Worwood [00:00:00]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:03]:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:05]:
This is the fuelling creativity in education. Podcast.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:09]:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the fields of education.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:15]:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:23]:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.
Matthew Worwood [00:00:35]:
So let’s begin.
Cyndi Burnett [00:00:36]:
Hello and welcome to the show. Today we have Peter Walktel, who teaches architecture and product innovation design at Adelpho Camarillo High School in Camarillo, California. He was a 2019 winner of the Harbor Freight Tools for Schools Teaching Excellence Prize and 2022 California Acte Teacher of the Year. 2023 Guinness World Record Holder. Oh, I can’t wait to talk about that. Of the longest charcuterie board in the world. How big do you think that is, Matt? We’re going to wait and see. He has taught design at the college level at MIT Pratt Institute, Parsons School of Design, and Otis College of Art and Design for more than 20 years. Walktel, teaching after a 30 year career in the toy and entertainment industry, is the former president of the Southern California Toy Association, a published author of two books, and has been a toy and product design inventor director at companies such as Marvel and Six Flags. So Peter, welcome to the show.
Peter Wachetel [00:01:40]:
Hey, thanks for having me, cindy and Matt as well. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Matthew Worwood [00:01:45]:
Before we get into the conversation, I’m going to share my ignorance. I don’t know what a charudery board is, so I couldn’t even answer your question, Cindy. I know board.
Peter Wachetel [00:01:56]:
Basically, it’s a long board that has cheeses and meats and different kinds of appetizers on it. So when you present or have people over, it’s a great party dish kind of thing.
Matthew Worwood [00:02:04]:
Oh, yeah.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:05]:
So now that we’re on this, how big do you think the Guinness World Record Holder of the largest chicuteri board, which he did with his students, which we’re going to learn about, how big do you think that is?
Matthew Worwood [00:02:17]:
Am I allowed to ask a question? I mean, we’re talking about soprasada cheese or are we talking about like big slices of pizza on it?
Peter Wachetel [00:02:24]:
Well, actually, Guinness was very particular of things that they had to do, and since you being from England or London or that United Kingdom, they are very particular with things. So basically, cheeses, meats, olives, cured meats, no pizza, no donuts, nothing like that. So basically, it had to be those things. So five different kinds of cheeses, three different kinds of meats, and all that arranged nicely on the board, just under 5ft.
Cyndi Burnett [00:02:50]:
That’s the largest Jacuterie board you think in the world.
Peter Wachetel [00:02:53]:
Yeah.
Matthew Worwood [00:02:53]:
I can see I’m getting myself into massive trouble. Take us out of our misery.
Peter Wachetel [00:02:56]:
Peter just a little short. You’re short by about 202ft and four inches. Wow.
Matthew Worwood [00:03:03]:
So how are they carrying it?
Peter Wachetel [00:03:05]:
So here’s a little thing about it. So basically run up, adding up to be about 207ft, four inches, give or take, and about 67 yards on a football field. So what we did is we built it into 33 foot sections and we used our old gym bleachers. And of course we didn’t use them as they were, but they were wooden gym bleachers. And what we did is we planed them, sand them down, recoded them, cleaned them, polished them, made really nice 33 foot sections, and then we carried them like twelve or 13 students at a time down the steps, down to the stadium, the football stadium, and then we assembled them all together there on tables with tents. And since Guinness being so particular that they are, they all had to be tented, it all had to be lined up perfectly. So it was quite a and you.
Matthew Worwood [00:03:54]:
Know, Cindy and I, we’ve had a few guests on the show talk about these absolutely amazing immersive projects associated with design. So just to back up a little bit, how did you get into kind of product design and inventing in the first place? And then I’m interested to see how you transitioned into bringing that experience into a classroom environment.
Peter Wachetel [00:04:11]:
Oh, that’s an excellent question. A lot of people ask me that as well. So, as you may or may not know, I grew up in Buffalo, New York, or Amherst.
Cyndi Burnett [00:04:18]:
Woohoo. Go Bill.
Peter Wachetel [00:04:20]:
Yeah, well, hopefully because they keep making me mad each year, but hopefully this is the year. So I start off just like any other, know, baseball, basketball, hockey, because hockey’s on the east coast, but I love to tinker with things. So I’d get a bicycle and I’d take it apart, I’d repaint it, restyle know, at the age of like seven and up I would do that. I got in a lot of trouble. I took our lawnmower apart and made a go cart out of it. And I think my dad is still mad at me about that. So that was really interesting. I had an interesting high school experience, too. I got a little trouble in high school and didn’t do that well the first couple of years. And then I realized at one point that high school is really about like 24 job interviews and 24 different bosses as you go through grades nine through twelve. And the students, what they might not realize is that, yeah, you might not need everything that you have in those classes, or you might not use them, but when you get older it will be nice to draw upon like, yes, I had a little sampling of this or that and you can actually use in your life. So, for example, if you don’t do well in English or math or pay attention when you really have a great idea, you won’t be able to communicate it effectively, and it shows you through attendance, tardiness discipline, grades. How? You’ll do in the real world because you’ve had good teachers and some maybe not as great teachers and you’ve had hard classes and easy classes and it’s sort of like the real world with jobs and things like that. And how I bring that into the classroom is basically I take anything that’s around you. I make it worthy of exploration and discovery and just be curious about things that are outside the world. So, like with the Guinness World Book of Records chartrey board, we were just thinking something, what could we do that would benefit our community, the students, the school, the state, put us on the map and be good for creativity, skill trades, as well as stem and steam. I know there’s a lot of different things in there, but what we did is we did build it. We had to coordinate it logistically, but also we learned from each other, teamwork, collaboration, design, working with other entities. And at the end, we also had to have people put this food onto the chartreview board. And we couldn’t use our own school because it’d be a little bit of a nepotism because, of course, our school wants to be great. So we had to find a culinary program at Arrival High School, and we had 24 of their culinary students come and help put all the structure report stuff on the board. And then, of course, we had Food Safe and California Standards and Health Department and all that fun stuff. So at the end, it really does take a village to raise a bunch of kids. But it was amazing because the students realized this is bigger than a lot of things, and it’s how the world works. If you have a company, there’s a lot of things that go into it. So that’s one example of how I bring creativity into the classroom and draw a little bit on my experiences from when I was in high school.
Cyndi Burnett [00:07:19]:
So how many students did you have involved overall in that?
Peter Wachetel [00:07:22]:
Probably altogether, I had 50 main students that worked on the board every day. But as the total goes, probably about 124 total students work on the board. The food, the logistics, the cleanup, the food preparation and display on the chartrey board as well. Yeah, so it was an ongoing deal. It was like if you had a business, you had your main people and then you had the extras and all that stuff, but about 124.
Cyndi Burnett [00:07:48]:
And then did you invite the community to come and enjoy it? What did you do with all that food?
Peter Wachetel [00:07:55]:
Oh, absolutely. Because, yeah, it was a huge event. So we had in the local papers, ABC, NBC, Fox, everybody aired it in the morning. We actually had news cruise at this high school from 06:00 A.m. All the way through. It was amazing. So yeah, we invited the community to come and eat and all that stuff and see that. But that was the other stipulation with Guinness is that we couldn’t have people just come down the bleachers and start eating crazy style because contamination and stuff like that. So what we had to do is our catering students, they basically had to wear gloves and all that stuff. We just boxed them up into the go boxes and handed them to them over the fence and then they could take them, eat them in the stands or take them home or whatever they have to do it. So that was another little hurdle to jump over. But it worked out great. It was a huge success.
Matthew Worwood [00:08:45]:
When you hear these types of projects, it’s great because you’re physically making this product, but when you go and get it out into the community cindy had referenced community. There’s so many other challenges as you’ve just been talking about because that’s, that real world experience in my mind. It’s not just a case of making something, it’s when that something interacts with an environment involving people outside the classroom. So what I’m curious about is, as you were putting this together and more importantly the event itself, how much did you involve your students in all of the problem solving and planning that had to probably go about given all of the challenges that you were facing?
Peter Wachetel [00:09:24]:
That’s a really good question as well. So I involved them in every aspect of what I was doing. Not necessarily decision wise because I had to send all the emails myself. I couldn’t have them just randomly send emails to Guinness and stuff. But basically I said, hey, this is what we’re doing, this is what we’re thinking. And we had a good, probably two, three months of planning. So in that stage we were actually contacting Guinness. I was showing them the emails, what Guinness is writing back, like, here’s the criteria we have to meet. Guinness also charges a fee if it’s something simple like how many bubbles you can blow in a minute that you could just do on your phone and there’s no fee at all. However, if you need an adjudicator to come there and witness it and record it, you need a lot more kinds of proof to do that. And they charge a fee and it ranges really pretty much starting at about $15,000 all the way up to whatever. So we had to get the adjudicator there. But what I did is I said, hey, how wide should this board be? How thick should this board be? How long do you think we should make it to the students? I’m like, what should we do with this? And I said, here’s all the food that we have to put on it. And I showed Guinness’s list of things that they had to have on it and then we actually reached out to the students parents as well as the community, local restaurants, and said, hey, could you donate any of the Chevrolet food? Meats, cheeses, olives, and stuff like that. However, we also had to keep in mind that because it was getting warmer out, it was in March, we couldn’t just have the food sitting at the school for two or three weeks. We had to have it come that day, fresh, unopened, untouched. So I said, you see all these logistics that are going in there? How it translates to your education is like, let’s say you’re going to go to college or university later on. You have to start the planning process early. You can’t just graduate. Here it is, it’s May or June and I’m ready to go. It’s like you have to contact the colleges, see what they offer, what they’re going to do, how much the tuition is. Are there scholarships available, is there financial aid available, what’s the campus like, what are the community like, what you could do with it. So they’re starting to see that there are big projects out there that we do in class, that it’s all tied together. There’s math. You had to do all the math for all the fees we had to pay. You had to do the research, you had to do the creativity, the building part. So they started seeing a lot like, wow, that’s a lot of stuff. And I go, well, that’s what happens when you get into the real world and there is no second chances. You miss the event or you don’t get the record, it’s over and your money’s gone. I go, but that’s the way it is. You get a job, you might get let go. You get a car, you might get in a car accident. But it shows them that the amount of effort and planning and preparation they do actually could pay off really big at the end.
Cyndi Burnett [00:12:11]:
I love how big this is in scope. I mean, I’ve always had a dream, I’ll be honest, I’ve always had a dream of breaking a world record for the Guinness Book because I remember as a kid getting like one of the book each year and reading through it and saying, someday I’m going to do something big. So I love that idea of doing something that big with your students, and I commend you for an incredible job on that. And I saw the pictures on the web, which we’ll link to in our show notes.
Peter Wachetel [00:12:38]:
One of the reasons I was doing this Guinness thing, too, is that for some reason, my Buffalo Bills, josh Allen and Stefan Diggs. So I said, you know what? This is my own Super Bowl for me. If I could do this, Josh, you could bring a Super Bowl to know. And it sort of worked out for me because I was pretty disappointed that they just couldn’t bring it through. It’s just basically a challenge. There’s something out there. And I wanted to show the students that even if you think something’s impossible, if you just nip at it little pieces at a time, you could get there. You can’t do it all at once. It’s impossible. But if you plan it out, you do little steps each time, it works out great. And at the same time we were doing this Guinness board. I like to throw in extra things like on food challenges. It’s like, oh, here’s a challenge know kind of thing. So one thing we also did while we’re doing the Guinness that wasn’t related to it is we have a UCLA Mattel Children’s Hospital here in Los Angeles and they know special kids that are in there that have different kinds of problems with them. So we ended up making over 100 wooden toy cars for Mattela’s Children’s Hospital at UCLA. And then we had them delivered there and stuff like that. That was neat too. So they’re seeing another big picture of what they do can really impact people society for the better. And there’s no political tie ins to it. It’s just you’re making toys for kids. You’re doing Guinness board just to show what you can do and learn things. So there’s no agenda except just to do it and help people. So it’s really been fun.
Cyndi Burnett [00:14:15]:
Going back to my point of I love the fact that it’s big. I also wonder for those teachers who are listening that say I just don’t have the time to take on such a massive project. How could they take what you’ve done and do it on a much smaller scale? So what recommendations would you have for that?
Peter Wachetel [00:14:31]:
That’s a good question too. I mean, there’s probably two or three different kinds of teachers. There’s the ones that are super focused. There’s ones that are a little more creative, take a little more time and there’s a couple that are a little both. You could approach Guinness or any other kind of big project in two ways. You could do a big project and just narrow it down to smaller chunks. Like this week we’re doing this, or this month we’re doing this. And that’s what we did with the Guinness thing. We literally plan prepared for over four or five months because we knew we were going to do it in March because December is too cold, June is too hot. So we planned it all in little chunks. Other than that, if you want to do a Guinness or any kind of huge project like that let’s say just for Guinness sake, have the students come up on their own. Like this assignment. What would you do for a Guinness World Record and keep it PG 13, obviously. Like, how many bubbles can you blow and see if you could tie it into the program, the class, the school somehow like, is it Stem? Is it steam? Is it an English thing? Is it something for football or cheer or any kind of sport and think of something that’s short and quick. Here’s an example I saw in a couple of Guinness sites. It’s like they’d have the school mascot. How many high fives can school mascot get in 1 minute? And they had the whole track team running around the mascot giving high fives. So it’s great for the school. It’s great for community collaboration, get everybody pumped for the school. And they set the world record and they could video it so they could replay it back. You don’t need an adjudicator. You don’t have to pay that 15 grand. And that’s the other thing I want to touch a little about the 15 grand. We had donations. We had to do a GoFundMe. So I don’t just have $15,000, I throw at it. But everyone who did participate on the board, it they got a little chunk of it and it was laser etched in with their name on it guinness World Record. Long as you reborn the date and all that, and they have a little piece of history. But for other teachers that want to do something like this at a smaller scale, look up current records, look at things that are easy to break, google it. It’s pretty easy. Watch them or follow them on social media and see what things might tie into what you do in class. And even if it’s just a simple project and you don’t make it, it’s still fun. It’s like these kids could literally now put on their resume when they go to college. Like, I was part of the Guinness World Record longest chartrey board or the toy project or things like that. So that’s my advice for teachers is either break into small chunks or find something quick and easy to try.
Matthew Worwood [00:17:00]:
And I feel like it’s not just teachers. We’re targeting the entire school. You know, cindy’s referenced it. You’ve referenced the word community multiple times in all of this. And I think there’s something special about identifying, like setting a goal, like breaking a world record as a community and collaborating across disciplines. In your case, Peter, across schools. I can’t help but think that particularly maybe for small towns that are looking to promote a sense of community within their town or city, this type of activity seems like something that schools could lead the way in doing.
Peter Wachetel [00:17:37]:
Oh, absolutely. I think that’s the main reason we did camarillo is a small town. It’s like the size of Amherst, grand island. Some know New York kind of cities. But it doesn’t have to be a Los Angeles, New York City kind of thing. But yeah, it’s basically if they want a little bit extra for their school for pride and community and bringing the whole town together, this is a great opportunity to do it. Whatever. It can be Guinness. It could be making toy cars. It could be anything. Like, for instance for example, like if I was still in Buffalo, New York, fisher Price is over there. I would totally collaborate with Fisher Price, bring them into my classroom, have them talk to my students, design fictitious kind of products for Fisher Price, have Fisher Price give my students valuable feedback about what’s going on. What is the toy industry all about? What happens in it? How does the toy get from A to Z? And we do that on an ongoing basis. We bring outside companies into the classroom. We’ve had Ford, BMW, Santa Barbara Zoo, Universal Studios, Mattel Six Flags and the students design projects for them. And then we go there field trips and all that. And then they design things based on criteria. And then those members at those companies, they give feedback to the students, like, hey, that’s great, or have you thought about this? So I love the real world experience and just showing that there’s a lot of students, when they grow up or high school, they think that’s the whole world is that town that they live in, and it’s really not. And if you collaborate and work with companies or do these kind of big projects, they start to see, wow, if you leave the city limits, there’s a whole nother world out there, and there’s a whole nother high school, and then you move to the next town and it’s a whole nother thing. So I think these kind of projects are really important for kids just to see a bigger picture of the world.
Matthew Worwood [00:19:26]:
Just one final question, Peter. I understand the soft skills piece, but as you reflect back on the project, were there any kind of, like, skills that students developed that benefited other classes, particularly in the core subjects like math, science, English, ela?
Peter Wachetel [00:19:45]:
Yeah, absolutely. So they had to learn a lot of math, like, how are we going to get this board out the door? So a little physics. We have a board that’s 207ft long, like, how are you going to get it out of a room? So there was interesting things like that. When they also do other projects similar to Guinness, they have to write proposals to these companies. So they’ll actually get up in front and say, hey, this is my idea for a theme park building or whatever. So they learn not only soft skills, but they learn to fine tune the writing math skills to make sure all the measurements are right. They learn eye hand coordination with the skills and the power tools that they use. They have to learn to cut, drill, sand, polish, paint. So they have some really good skills. So, like, if you said, oh, I want to eventually build a shelf for my house, they could do that. So they get the whole theme in there. They learn new technology. So we have 3D printers and online modeling, 3D software. So they’re learning the whole technology part as well. So I try to give them as much as a well rounded education through Steam or Stem, as I possibly can, and they touch upon different kinds of subjects throughout the process of the projects.
Matthew Worwood [00:21:00]:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, Curiosity to Create.
Cyndi Burnett [00:21:08]:
Curiosity to Create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.
Matthew Worwood [00:21:19]:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their Creative Thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.
Cyndi Burnett [00:21:34]:
To learn more, check out Curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode. Peter, at the end of every episode, we ask all of the people that we interview, what three tips would you give to educators to help them bring creativity into their classroom?
Peter Wachetel [00:21:53]:
So number one, bring outside influences into the classroom. So number one, outside industry. Bring a toy company in. Bring a company that’s local in your town or community and to talk to the students to explain what goes on in a business every day. To show how all the different parts and pieces are working for that company. To show the students how those things all go together into one business so that kids could understand even though they have English, math, science, physics, or whatever in a day. And they’re like, how are these all related? Bringing industry into your classroom is really great to actually show them to do that. Another tip I would say is instead of just raising the roof, just take the roof off. Let anything happen. Do sort of like a brainstorm session. Come up with ideas that are just crazy, like doing a Guinness World Book of Records thing, and then say, here’s how we’re going to do it and how we’re going to do that like that. And keep the ideas open and flowing and then start narrowing them down. And then I guess the final tip I would say is no matter what you know or how you know, it, be open to reteach yourself and relearn things, how you actually produce them. So if you’re a teacher or whatever you are, just be open to new ideas and bring in things that challenge you and make you a little scared each day to try it, but it opens you up to more possibilities. There is no right or wrong way to do a lot of things. There’s different ways you see that, for example, with football teams and Super Bowls. The Bills just can’t figure out what that is, but there isn’t any one way. So I change my teaching around all the time. Like, I’ll ask the students, what should the project be? And then I bring that in. Well, so those three things I think, are great things for teachers to think about.
Cyndi Burnett [00:23:36]:
Well, Peter, I have to say I really enjoyed hearing your story, and I know you have so many more stories that you could share with us about your work in the toy industry. And I know we had Azel Wade, who was another toy designer on the show. So if you haven’t heard that episode and you liked Peter’s episode, I think you’ll also like that episode. But what I really think is interesting is sort of breaking the paradigms of what we see as school. And there’s so many conversations right now about education and what it should be, and I think your example is just a beautiful one for showing the world what education should look like. So kudos to you for doing something bold and brilliant and big, and I think we need to do more of that and not be afraid to do those things and take on those challenges and have the students leading the cindy and Matt.
Peter Wachetel [00:24:28]:
Yeah, it’s basically what I did is I took my experience as a toy designer and a theme park designer, and I just watered it down for high school and brought that in there and used some of my contacts for that. I showed them some of my inventions and things they’ve done, but they see that really, if you just have a dream and an idea and you work hard at it, you really could do anything you want to do in life. It just takes grit and perseverance and just keep going through it. But I hope this helps a lot of teachers or just opens up ideas for projects and class things in education.
Matthew Worwood [00:25:00]:
Well, I think that brings our interview with Peter to a conclusion. I will add that my family have finally chosen their NFL team. I will say that the Bills were on the list, but unfortunately, we did select the Giants. There was a number of factors that went in, and I’m pretty comfortable with our decision, but I learned enough to know that this could be the Bill’s year, maybe next year. They’re definitely in a good place, and I want to let you know we did think about them. So if you have any questions for Cindy and I, or ideas for potential guests or topics that you’d like to explore, please reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.
Cyndi Burnett [00:25:38]:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett. This podcast was produced by Matthew Warwood and Cindy Burnett and edited by Sina Yusepzade. The episode was sponsored by Curiosity to create.
In what ways can creativity be infused into mathematics education, especially for students who may not naturally gravitate toward math?
In this episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast, Matthew Worwood and Cyndi Burnett interview Peter Wachtel, a teacher at Adolfo Camarillo High School in California. Peter is an experienced teacher of architecture and product innovation design and has a diverse background in the toy and entertainment industry. He was also the winner of the Harbor Freight Tools for Schools Teaching Excellence Prize and the California ACTE CTE Teacher of the Year.
The conversation begins with a discussion about Peter’s Guinness World Record for creating the longest charcuterie board in the world. He explains that it was a collaborative project with his students, involving careful planning and logistics. The board was 204 feet, 7.8 inches, and featured various cheeses, meats, and appetizers arranged in an aesthetically pleasing way.
Peter then shares his journey into product design and inventing, recounting his early days of tinkering with bicycles and even turning a lawnmower into a go-kart. He emphasized the importance of curiosity and exploration in education, as well as the value of learning from both good and not-so-great teachers. The episode concludes with Peter discussing how he brings creativity into the classroom. He believes that anything around us can be an opportunity for exploration and discovery. Through projects like the charcuterie board, his students learn teamwork, collaboration, and problem-solving skills. Peter highlights the importance of involving the community and different entities in these projects, giving students a real-world understanding of how businesses operate.
Overall, this episode provides valuable insights into how creativity can be infused into education and the transformative impact it can have on students’ learning experiences.
Guest Bio
Peter Wachtel teaches architecture and product innovation design at Adolfo Camarillo High School in Camarillo, Calif. He was a 2019 winner of the Harbor Freight Tools for Schools Teaching Excellence Prize & 2022 California ACTE CTE Teacher of the Year, 2023 Guinness World Record Holder (Longest Charcuterie Board in the World), taught design at the college level at MIT, Pratt Institute, Parsons School of Design and Otis College of Art and Design for more than 20 years. Wachtel, teaching after a 30-year career in the toy & entertainment industry, is the former president of the Southern California Toy Association, a published author of two books and has been a toy and product designer/inventor/ director at companies such as Marvel & Six Flags.
Debrief Episode
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Podcast Sponsor

We are thrilled to partner with Curiosity 2 Create as our sponsor, a company that shares our commitment to fostering creativity in education. Curiosity 2 Create empowers educators through professional development and community support, helping them integrate interactive, creative thinking approaches into their classrooms. By moving beyond traditional lecture-based methods, they help teachers create dynamic learning environments that enhance student engagement, improve academic performance, and support teacher retention. With a focus on collaborative learning and exploration, Curiosity 2 Create is transforming classrooms into spaces where students thrive through continuous engagement and growth.