What happens when the ability to focus intensely becomes both a creative superpower and a

potential challenge? In today’s episode, we first unpack AuDHD, the intersection of autism and ADHD, and consider what it can teach us about cognitive diversity and creativity. We then take a deeper dive into hyperfocus, those periods of extraordinary concentration that can fuel curiosity, expertise, and creative work, but could also be difficult to regulate, and they do come with some real costs.

It’s a conversation that we feel connects closely with build relationships, one of the 10 actions in our new book, The Future Creative: 10 Actions for Fueling Creativity in Education, which is out now and available to buy on Amazon and through other book retailers.

So how can we better understand the creative potential of hyperfocus without overlooking its difficulties? This is what we’ll be exploring and more with clinical psychologist, author, and educator, Dr. Megan Anna Neff

  📍 ​

   Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast. And today we welcome to the show Dr. Megan Anna Neff, who is an AuDHD clinical psychologist, author, and educator. And I believe I said that correctly, and if  I didn’t, we will be getting back to how it’s pronounced correctly  in the show. She began to recognize the same patterns in herself, leading to her own autism and ADHD discovery and a shift toward neurodivergent affirming education. Her work centers self-understanding,  nervous system regulation, and identity  integration for AuDHD, autistic, and ADHD adults, particularly those identified later in life. She’s also the author of “Self-Care for Autistic People” and “The Autistic Burnout Workbook,”   – and the forthcoming book, AudHD  Unlocked, as well as the founder of the Neurodivergent Insights, the business behind her clinical writing frameworks, and the NDI YouTube channel. Anah, welcome to the show

 Thank you so much for having me. I’m so sorry that my bio was such a mouthful to get through, and it brought me a lot of delight hearing you,, try to pronounce AuDHD. , Partly because that… I actually did not like the term for a while because I thought it sounded like saying I was odd., And that’s how I was pronouncing it in my head.

And then someone told me, “If you pronounce it like awesome, AuDHD,” then it feels a little bit better. So I’ve come to really love the term. But yes, thank you for having me.

 No,, it’s a 📍 📍 📍 pleasure and I do appreciate you clarifying it. I mean, for those of you listening, yes, we do edit the show a little bit, and I did have some problems with that, , that acronym. And it’s interesting because I don’t know if even if it would be referred to as an acronym ’cause it’s almost like an acronym come title, right? 

Oh my goodness, I’ve never thought 📍 📍 📍 about , what it is. It’s a term, so it’s taking AU as in the autism and then the DHD, which is an 📍 📍 📍 acronym from ADHD. 📍 📍 📍 So , I guess taking the acronym of ADHD and then just inserting the autism into it.

listen, I’m digging myself out my hole. It’s like, okay, I made the mistake, but I also introduced the idea of is it a term or is it an acronym?

 And isn’t this so much about creativity, being able to stop and 📍 📍 📍 be, curious about even things that maybe we feel embarrassed 📍 📍 📍 about, I also have some phonetical dyslexia, so phonetics are really hard for me. So it’s something I’ve had to learn to embrace with speaking of I’m gonna say words wrong.

I’m gonna make up a lot of words. , And so being able to have humor and laughter and curiosity about mistakes has been so important, , for me in being able to continue to be a curious, creative human. 

I moved over to the US, people think it’s to do with my accent, right? So they’re, “Oh, that’s

Oh

an English word,” or, “That’s how it’s pronounced in, in England.”

And so it, it allows me to get away a little bit with

Угу

times I’m going over the transcript to the podcast, and I hear literally words that I’ve just made up or completely butchered on the show. So is it– w- w- our curiosity, so that’s part of neurodivergency, right?

Okay, , there’s  a kind of a newer idea out there theory, and I wanna make a huge blanket statement that, , there’s a lot we still don’t know that’s necessarily been replicated in the research, but then there’s a lot from, collective community of what they’re talking about, their experience.

So I do know more and more people started to talk about ADHD as hyper curiosity. I don’t know how validated that’s been in the research, but that definitely maps onto my experience. It maps onto a lot of what I see in the community I work with, a lot of the people I’ve worked with clinically,  kind of that ability to just, be curious about  how things work, to chase our curiosity.

, So I think we probably wanna be cautious of a blanket statement 📍 📍 📍 of, neurodivergent people are more curious or curiosity is a neurodivergent trait. But, there is some thinking that specifically ADHD might be connected to hyper curiosity, and that makes sense to me.

Like, I do my best work when I’m chasing my curiosity ’cause that’s where the interest is, that’s where the dopamine is, that’s where the motivation is. 

So Meg and Anna, I am really curious about that. But before we dig into that, I’d like to talk a little bit about AuDHD, because it’s not a term we’ve used on the show before. It’s a new term to us, and we’d like to understand why you’ve described these brains as having, an interest-based nervous system.

, ,  ​

 so first, AuDHD, it’s a newer term. , It actually didn’t really show up in Google searches until about 2022. And then it’s interesting, , I pulled up a graph when I was working on this book, and you just see the interest in this term, really increasing since 2022.

So it’s a community-created term, it’s not a medical term, and it’s a term for when someone is both autistic and ADHD. And  part of why I think we collectively knew  we needed this term is that being both autistic and ADHD is such a unique experience, and it’s not quite the same thing as simply stacking ADHD and autism together as if it was a layered cake because of the way they interact.

So for example, I’m someone who I really need routine and predictability to feel grounded and to feel secure and to,, feel present to my  life, ’cause I can be pretty anxious and dysregulated  when that gets disrupted. But then I also need a lot of novelty and, new stimulus to be able to feel alive and awake to my existence.

So it’s this constant kind of tug-of-war of how do I build routine and predictability and novelty in my life. And so that experience, like the phenomenological experience of holding these paradoxes,   , that is a unique experience that deserves, a  unique name and identity and community. , And so that’s what that term means, and I think what we’re seeing is the creation of an AuDHD culture and community forming around it.

, Which is pretty cool, ’cause for a lot of us, we’ve perhaps been in ADHD spaces and be like, “I connect to a lot of this, but not all of it,” or being in autistic spaces and feeling the same thing., So , that’s that term.,

 well before you do the interest-based nervous systems, I did just wanna connect back to another, episode we’ve had this season with, Matt Zagreski.

 Y- I think if I remember this right, Cindy, he referred to it , as somewhat like within, under the umbrella of neurodivergent thinking, there is a quadrant.

And so you might have someone that could score very high for ADHD, but also score with, dyslexia, OCD, and I can’t remember all of the quads there. And autism, I think, was the fourth quad that we were speaking about in that episode. But the key point I’m making there is that neurodivergency is a broad term. 

Yeah

in  this way, and it might look very different in somebody else because it’s quite complex 

I really appreciate that conversation ’cause, once you’re neurodivergent, I think the odds of being, like, multiply neurodivergent, of having, , dyslexia alongside it or, in my community we call it the alphabet soup, , like, all the mental health conditions, , that, , a lot, especially with ADHD and autism, we’re more predisposed to also have things like anxiety, depression, , OCD, PTSD, bipolar.

So all of that’s gonna flavor, like, the soup. If I  tend to think about the neurology as, , the base, and then  we might have these other experiences that are also gonna flavor it. So for example, my OCD flavors how I experience both my autism and my ADHD, , or my anxiety. So it’s when we’re looking at someone who’s neurodivergent, we’re typically looking at someone who is pretty complex, both in regards to we could have multiple flavors of, neurodevelopmental things happening, so ADHD, autism, dyslexia, but then also other, mental health conditions on top of that. 

that’s a great overview. So can you tell us now more about the interest-based nervous system and how that relates?

 Yeah, it’s interesting because both autism and ADHD talk about this, but from slightly different angles. So from the ADHD angle, , Dr. Dodson, who’s a psychiatrist who’s done a lot in moving the conversation forward in ADHD of understanding how ADHD is so much more than kind of attention difficulties.

It’s really influencing how a person experiences their self. So he’s the one that  also put, forwarded the conversation around rejection  sensitivity dysphoria. , But he’s also the one that coined interest-based nervous system, which is the idea that what turns on motivation for the ADHD learner is very different than a lot of the ways workplaces and schools are set up, and it’s things like, so interest,, but also things like urgency,, novelty, challenge or competition.

 I like to add play in there. I think play can also be one of the things  that activates the interest-based nervous system. , And then he juxtaposes that with what he calls an importance-based system, which is where, , most people, if they’re not ADHD, and I think everyone obviously is gonna respond better to interest, but for the majority of people, , if something’s important, like my parent says it’s it’s important to me or it’s important to a teacher, it’s like, ”  Okay, I can get engaged.

I can do the thing. I can do the  homework.” But that can be a lot harder for someone who the importance just doesn’t register. It doesn’t kick off the dopamine and the motivation. And so for a lot of ADHDers, our struggle is we’ll do the interesting thing, but the thing that is important that takes two minutes stays on our to-do list for two weeks and is, like, draining us.

We’re often feeling, , guilt and shame for not being able to do that. 

Mm.

, and  then autism also has an interest, of what’s sometimes called as, an interest-based mind. We tend to have more monotropic minds, which is the idea that we focus narrowly and deeply, and kinda commit our resources to fewer things.

It’s juxtaposed with, a polytropic mind that can maybe divide attention more easily. And  so when you have a monotropic mind, we tend to go very deep into  our interest and into things that are meaningful for us, and it can be quite unsettling to be forced out of that bubble. , Similarly for an ADHDer, it can be very unsettling to be forced out of a hyper-focus vortex.

, That task-switching is what can become very both emotionally hard, but also cognitively tasking for us. 

So how do we meet those needs the students in our classrooms? So if a teacher is listening and, they think they might have a student that has AuDHD, , or even ADHD, and they have to meet the needs of the curriculum, so they can’t just do what their student is interested in, how do they get them motivated? 

this is where I wish I could… So my spouse actually is a former teacher. I wish I could draw on his knowledge at the moment, ’cause I do know there’s so many, especially now, there’s so many standards, and I feel like increasingly teachers have less flexibility. , When possible, and I realize this isn’t possible, but when possible, can there be a range of options  for how the outcome is shown?

Like, , the student has  shown that they’ve learned this material and, , can they, write a short story or short essay about it? Can they do a comic strip about it? , If they’re really into like videography, can they do a video about it? Can we change up the mediums of how they’re showing that they’ve, mastered this material?

And again I realize that’s gonna be easier in some contexts than others  or some assignments. Anything we  can do that can interject interest or allow flexibility for interest to be there, whether it’s interest of the medium being used, or interest of the topic, or interest of, When my spouse was teaching, he was a literature, teacher, so he brought just so many books to the classroom, and it was always like  students could choose which books they were reading, essentially. 

And he knew all the books and knew the students, so would s- like match s- books that he thought a student might be interested in. , Obviously, that takes a lot more work, and teachers are really, like, over-taxed right now with all that is being asked of them. But any ways we can build in flexibility that allows for interest to become part of the learning process is gonna be really helpful. 

we’ve covered episodes around creativity styles, and certainly within the field of creativity, it’s not just interest,, but there’s a recognition that the more choice you give students to express their mastery of a topic or even just something that they’re really passionate about, the more likely it is that you’re gonna be able  to tap into things that they’re already as- interested about.

So maybe I’m  not interested in, the solar system per se, but I’m really excited about the idea of expressing what I have learned from this lesson through the creation of this thing. And, I like to think, I don’t know about you, Cindy, but I like to think that the education system is making strides and efforts to, maybe not in all subjects, but making efforts to do this.  

Yes, Matt, we have had so many great conversations , with teachers and administrators and researchers who have talked about we can build that interest in, and I think it’s really exciting, and I think we’re moving in very small incremental , directions that help students really tap into those interests.

But I, I don’t think we’re anywhere near where we need to be   📍     now I do wanna shift a little towards getting into the weeds about some of , the typical behaviors that we associate with people that fall under, neurodivergent students and also adults and professionals, is that hyperfocus.

Because, we talk a lot about it being a superpower   and certainly Cindy and I have spoke about it. I use the word  I need to get in the zone, and it can take me a while to get in the zone, but when I am in the zone, productivity and how far I can get into the weeds is incredible. The flip side of it is it can sometimes take me a while to get into the zone, and when I’m in the zone,  if I’m being asked to basically stop, particularly if it’s  abrupt I am not proud of it.

I can get very agitated and uncomfortable. And I can’t help but sit that we wanna nurture hyperfocus, but within the constraints of the school system, know, it’s like I can imagine that beep, beep, beep with the it’s  time to transition to classes. I mean, that is… That in itself  is a system that’s not accommodating what could be an incredible superpower for learners.

So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about hyperfocus, particularly as it relates to children, its relationship to creativity, and then how we can nurture it successfully.

 Mm-hmm. I love this question. I personally call mine the vortex, and the world just disappears for me when I’m in the vortex. It was a couple years ago, I realized, it happens most often when I’m writing, and,, my dog was a puppy at the time, and we were still training. And I got up from, two hours, and I noticed just a huge, pee  stain on the blanket.

And I was like, “The dog literally peed  on me, and I was in the vortex, and I didn’t know.” So that says something about the power of hyperfocus. , And when my kids were younger, it was hard ’cause we didn’t yet know I was ADHD, and I think my spouse was confused as to why I would apparently,, ignore the kids.

So yes, It can be a very intense experience. And it can be very, exactly what you just described. , It’s  irritating to get pulled out of it. I often use the  metaphor of, like, it feels like I’m, deeply emerged in water, and so it’d almost be someone, yanking you up by your hood- I don’t know why you’d have a hoodie in water, but, yanking you by the hoodie and,, all of a sudden you’re out of this deep restorative state.

And hyperfocus, it shares some overlap with flow state, which a lot of positive psychologists talk about,  and I think is also connected to some of the creativity research.  It’s both a place where a lot of creativity, a lot of productivity can happen, but it’s also restorative. And I think especially for ADHD and autistic learners, we need space that we can get into that deep immersive flow state because that’s part of what restores us.

I’m so curious  about this thread of how do you incorporate that into school.  My initial thought is a little bit of skepticism in the sense of like I know for me, even if I have, an appointment on my schedule, it’s hard for me to get into hyperfocus because I know I’m gonna lose track of time.

And I could imagine a lot of students it’d be similar of the conditions probably aren’t really right in a school setting for flow state because often you need to have a pretty ideal sensory environment for that to even work.  And then also knowing a transition’s coming, that might block some learners from entering into it.

If there was a way to support learners getting into that flow state, I think it would help so much with learning, but also with regulation. I also think a lot of kind of quote unquote “bad behavior” that is seen  in schools or behavior that’s maybe disciplined  are children’s reactions to being forced out of that flow state.

And so I think that’s also a really helpful thing for teachers to know. Can they be giving any kind of transitional things? One thing we do in our household is, we talk about time transition. So before a kid asks me for something or before I prompt them for something, we’ll do a gentle check-in of “Are, are you interruptible  right now?”

And I might be like, “Give me five minutes to transition,” and then, “Yes.” So we give each other buffers, transitional buffers. So can teachers be doing that for students of mentioning the transition’s coming so it’s less of that abrupt, jarring experience, , especially with the bell, ’cause that’s just not a nice sensory experience to be the transitional cue.

 Yeah, and I think about, being in situations where I’m teaching and I’m pulling students out of that state, and how it makes me feel bad to, pull students out when I see they’re in a deep flow. But I know we also have to continue to move on because there’s obviously a set curriculum that you need to teach. You only have a certain amount of time to do it. They lose track of time, and you’re like, “Okay, it’s time to come back.”

 Hmm.

like that strategy, and it feels small, but it also sounds powerful to just give them a cue of gentle, like, we’re gonna be transitioning in five minutes, so they can

 Угу 

to get into that head space of I’m gonna be, yanked up by my hoodie collar and taken away, in a few minutes to go work on something else. So

that’s a really solid, simple strategy to give to teachers. you have any others like that? 

, I think, that’s the first one that comes to mind. And then I also think just easing the transition, especially if it was like a writing. If it’s like, “Okay, we’re gonna be coming back. If you need 30 seconds to,, wrap what you’re doing, do that.” And then kinda having a quieter transition, and just realizing   , especially for students who are task switching, if the transitions  to something that’s really different, that’s gonna be hard.

So also even like narrating, “Okay, we’re wrap… We’re kinda closing that context bucket. We’re gonna transition into this.” So some of that meta communication around what’s happening. But also just thinking what you’re transitioning in and  out of, and honoring that takes a bit more  energy for neurodivergent learners to be able to do that transition.

Especially the bigger… Like I think about context buckets a lot. Like that’s part of it, is that when I’m in something, I’m– that context bucket is open for me. And then after we’re done recording, I’m gonna transition to a different  context bucket. And that the closing of this and the  opening of that takes cognitive resources.

So even thinking through what are all of the context buckets in a single class period that we’re opening, and that I’m asking learners to open. And is there a way that they can maybe be paired more naturally where there’s less context transitions that we’re doing? 

I love those and I actually wrote some of , those down because I think, I’m just thinking about going from a biology lesson into a music lesson, for example, and all of the conversations as well about we have that, some of my, child seems to do well in this class, but there’s always a problem in the afternoon or something. Just sticking with hyperfocus a little bit more and talking about this incredible superpower and There’s part of me that’s thinking it’s sad because it doesn’t seem like the school environment allows them to tap into to what could be an  incredible, asset for them in the classroom. But  from a creativity perspective, just out of curiosity, do you think that the hyperfocus is also something that contributes to creativity? The capacity to get deeper and to study and remain laser-focused perhaps for longer than what somebody else could do in terms of, “I’m gonna find a solution. I’m really curious and really determined. I need to go and find the solution, and I can’t stop until I find the solution.” 

so just wanna again caveat this, not sure what the research says. From personal experience, I absolutely think so,, and just hearing people talk about it. Like I know for me, and this is something that I talk about as being AuDHD, is my brain wants to go both deep, ’cause of the autism, I wanna like deeply understand the thing, and then it wants to go wide ‘  cause of my associative ADHD brain.

So  when I’m in the vortex, it’s like I’ll be reading a research article, and then I’ll be curious about something, and I’ll find the footnote, and then I’ll go be reading another article, and I’ll be five footnotes over, I’m like building the whole architecture of needing to understand, like in that context maybe, the literature of the thing.

And I’m not  satisfied until I both deeply understand it, but then I’m also having  a lot of creative associations ’cause I’m in the vortex, 📍 📍 📍 and it’s tree branching. And so yeah, I think being able to immerse ourselves in worlds essentially does, curiosity’s kinda leading when we’re doing that, and so I think that does result in a lot of  creativity or new insights that maybe,  wouldn’t happen outside of those kind of deep dives, new ways of seeing it because you’re so immersed in it.

So for me, it intuitively absolutely makes sense that it would be linked to creativity. I just don’t know that we can say that with a lot of scientific confidence behind it. But I think the community would probably echo that as well. 

so to that end, burnout, right? This is definitely something that I’ve recognized as an adult, I’ve had to deal with , and monitor. And I know I’m not the only one that, that has to be very careful about that.

But I could probably, if I wasn’t forced to be interrupted, if I didn’t have a natural transition, I could stay in something for a very long time at the expense of sleep, sometimes at the expense of even eating because that’s breaking it. But the whole burnout thing is something that I’ve got really curious about because surely this is something that we do need to help students who are expressing these behaviors to say, “Yes, this is a strength,” but also you need to develop a strategy where you do eat and you do get sleep, and you do talking about mindfulness, you do come out and give yourself the time you need to also disconnect 

I’m really glad you brought that up ’cause I do often talk about hyperfocus as a double-edged sword, and for exactly what you’re describing is, I even talk about this as, hyperfocus-fueled ADHD burnout cycles. I think this is part of the ADHD pattern  is we’ll get really excited and interested in something. 

I know for me when that happens, that might mean I’m staying up till 2:00 AM or 3:00 AM, and then my sleep is getting off, and then everything you just mentioned, hydration, food, protein. So our body basics get neglected.   And then we can crash afterwards. So I  think about our relationship to hyperfocus as something that we also need to, benefit from learning how to regulate it, because it is really intense.

It can be really exciting, and it’s, “How do I regulate it so I don’t get overexcited in these things?”   A few things that I talk about in this  regard are things like think about as putting in bumper rails. If I know I’m gonna go into a hyperfocus zone, it’s like, okay, can there be maybe a higher protein snack around me so that my blood sugar levels don’t crash?

Or, a way to  do a gentle check-in, if there’s a kid who tends  to go into hyperfocus maybe after school as part of… ‘Cause it could be part of their recovery,, is there a preferable activity that they can transition into? , Transitioning out of hyperfocus into a less preferred activity  is really, really hard.

So if it’s like, “You now need  to stop doing video games and go brush your teeth,” that’s gonna be a really hard transition for a lot of kids to make. That’s, I’m transitioning from hyperfocus to a task that I don’t wanna do. So thinking about what are we transitioning into when we’re gonna  be doing the, , off-ramp of the hyperfocus  and then really developing kind of that mindfulness meta check-ins to be able to do a meta check-in of , “Okay, do I still wanna be doing this?”

, But yeah, I’m definitely with you where I’ve been in hyperfocus, and I’ll be even telling myself for,, an hour, ”  I need to go use the bathroom. I need to go use the bathroom.” And it takes me  another hour to actually, get up to go do the thing. And it’s a weird experience to try to articulate if you’ve never had that experience of just being so locked in the kind of audi- ADHD inertia part.

 

you get out of these states or you get yanked out by your, shirt, as you  mentioned, and then all of a sudden , you have to get back into the mode. You have to get back into the thinking or get yourself engaged with whatever it is that task that you need to do.

And I think about those learners. Again, it’s like, so what do we need to do if we’ve taken them out to get them back into that place? ‘Cause I think it is hard to just go, “Okay, I’m gonna go right back into it.” It’s like once you  get up

Yeah

,  it’s over, right?

So there’s a few things that come to mind here. One of the best, my favorite workplace accommodations to mention, but then I think we can translate it to school, is, and something my spouse and I have learned, is one thing I’ve told him is there’s no such thing as a small interruption.

If you’re interrupting me, ’cause we both work from home, to ask one question, that to him might  feel like a small question, right? It’s a 30-second question. That’s actually  not a small interruption for someone who’s in hyperfocus, ’cause it’s, again, I’m getting out of the bubble, I’m transitioning, and it takes me a second to, actually take in the words and the context he’s asking me about, respond, and then getting back into it.

So as much as we can cut down on, quote-unquote, small interruptions…  So in an education setting, I  imagine teachers are encouraged to, check in with students. But it’s that actually helpful for that student, or is that taking them out of their deep focus? , The other thing I would add is, and again, every school system is different, but I think neurodivergent learners should just always be able to urgently use the bathroom.

‘Cause in addition to hyperfocus, a lot of us  also have more difficulty with interoception, so the  ability to feel our internal signals. So a lot of these learners don’t know they have to use the bathroom until it’s urgent. So one of the really unfortunate things that happen, is when it’s like, “Well, wait till we’re done with this lesson,” or, “Wait till you get a pass to use the bathroom.”

‘Cause, especially for the younger kids, where you’re needing a pass to leave. ,

 ​

  Megan, Anna, I have really learned so much from you, and I think we could just keep talking for several hours because there’s so much about this that we don’t know. Obviously, it’s a whole field. And so for those of you who are listening who are interested, where can they go to find out more about your work? 

the main hub would be our, our website, neurodivergentinsights.com. And we have lots of, free articles and resources there. I’m a visual processor, so then I create a lot of, visual resources that are available there, but also on social media, like Instagram and LinkedIn and, Facebook.

And  then if you’re specifically interested in AuDHD, I co-host a podcast called Divergent Conversations, and we’re both AuDHD therapists, and we’re talking more about the adult experience,, in that context. But those would be a few places to, , connect , with what we’re doing. 

That’s fantastic. So before you go, can you think of an educator who unlocked your creative potential, and who were they and how did they unlock it, and what was the outcome? 

I wish I could be providing you a K12, but to be honest, I really struggled in K12, and I I don’t know that I s- had a lot of teachers that saw my potential till undergrad and graduate school, probably because that’s when I could really study within  my interests.

But I I had a professor,  Dr. Daniel Treier, ,

So I was in a theology class, and it was a very advanced seminar class. I was the only woman in it.

It was, like, nine, and we were studying Christology, which is a really kind of complex theology. And I was in a class  that I could tell I was, punching above my weight in the sense of   , I was working really hard to feel like I was keeping up. And I wrote this paper where I was breaking down this pretty complex theology, philosophical argument, and I used a metaphor of a salad because I’ve always needed  to translate complex ideas into something  that’s visual and concrete and metaphorical for it to make sense into my brain.

So in a paper I wrote, I was breaking down this complex theology through talking about a salad and how, you need  the juxtaposition for a salad to be a salad. You need the tomatoes  and the croutons and if it’s not the sum of the parts, it’s not that deep, but it was a creative way of exploring a complex idea.

And my professor said, “I wouldn’t have been able to write this, and you’re really creative, and this is  such a great way of teaching this concept.”  And he encouraged me to go on to apply , to Princeton, , which is, I have… My first master’s is through Princeton, which again, I, didn’t ever see myself as a smart person.

, But he gave me the confidence to believe my ability to translate  complex ideas into things that,   can be talked about more easily 📍 📍 📍 that I guess as an educator, was a gift that I had, and I never seen it as a gift. And I also think I got that gift because of how hard education was for me. I was always trying to figure out how to make these ideas make sense to me. 

So yeah, I would say he was the one 📍 📍 📍 that saw that  creativity as a form of intelligence, and I think in choosing to trust , that led me to continue to pursue higher education and to believe that maybe I did have something helpful to say in 📍 📍 📍 educations,, in spaces or, as an educator.

 Megan, Anna, thank you again for everything and for doing the incredible work that you do. before we leave, we just want to share with you that we do have our new book, The Future Creative: 10 Actions for Fueling Creativity in Education, which is officially out and available. And this book takes many of the   📍 ideas we’ve covered through our 150  conversations on our podcast, like this one, and turns them into the practical actions for educators who want to better understand, support, and fuel creativity in their students. You can find The Future Creative wherever you buy your books, and as always, thanks for listening to the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast.

We’ll see you next time. I’m Dr. Cindy Burnett

And my name is Dr. Matthew Worwood