Dr. Matthew Warwood:
In this final debrief episode of season 11, and also our final debrief of 2025, we will connect three ideas that came up during our last three interviews, which is around whether AI can truly support student creativity, how innovation ish thinking reframes the way we teach creativity, and the role games based learning plays in strengthening creativity and critical thinking in the classroom. Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
This is the Fueling Creat in Education podcast.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
So let’s begin.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
Matt. I can’t believe it’s almost the end of 2025. Can you believe it?

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
I know. It is absolutely insane. It feels like it’s. The years are progressing and moving faster and faster every single year, including our podcast. I mean, we, we just completed another season.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I know. And almost our fifth year doing this podcast. So I, I, I know. I messaged you yesterday and I said, how far do you think we’ll take it? And you gave me a thousand episodes. So apparently we’re going to be doing this in the nursing home.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
We will. You know, I didn’t do the math, but, you know, I’m sure AI can assist us to some extent. Maybe, maybe we’ll be able to plug something into our brains and it can just somehow produce an episode without us even having to think about the episode.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
Oh, that’s a wild idea. But for now, let’s talk about the last three episodes we had of, and the last three guests we had of 2025. We had Dr. Florin Vinshon, who talked about AI and creativity in the classroom. And then we had Dr. Tessa Forshaw and Richard Cox Braden, who talked about their recent book, Innovation Ish. And then finally we had Steven Slota and Trent Hergenrader, who talked about world building and gaming. So let’s hear your first insight.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
My first insight. Okay, I’m going to start off with Florent Vincent. And you know, it was great having kind of that historical perspective of Generative AI. And as you know, I’ve got a book out, an edited collection with James Kaufman, Generative AI and Creativity Perspectives, Possibilities and Precautions. And Florin had you know, written the opening chapter for that book and taken us through a lot of the conversations we’re having about AI and creativity. Do have a history, you know, with computational creativity. So it was really fascinating to go over that. But that wasn’t actually my takeaway.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
What my takeaway was was our conversation around this idea of this, this personification of AI. And to a certain extent, you and I did that really early on, right when we was talking about cobots, the idea that we’re going to be collaborating with AI. And I remember on our Debrief episode around Brian Alexander, I was really kind of fascinated about this idea of, wow, we’re developing all these 21st century skills for so long, which is around that collaboration, critical thinking, creativity, and suddenly we’re thinking about these skills in rel, working with machines. I know that I personally have changed my position a little bit on the extent to which we personify AI, and I’m really just going to turn it back over to you. Do you think it’s. It’s healthy, it’s helpful, it’s appropriate to kind of refer to this AI technology as being, you know, a person. It’s a collaborative partner as opposed to being a collaborative tool. What’s your take on that?

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
That’s a great question. And I think for me, it is much more of a tool than a person. Although I do, I will say that I really appreciate when I’m talking to it and I ask questions and I keep asking different kinds of questions that I don’t get. Oh. Or I don’t feel worried that it’s going to come back and say, you’ve asked too many questions or enough. Like, don’t you understand it at this point? So it’s interesting, like, the whole idea of keeping open. And I’m developing this course around creativity and AI right now. And one of the things that, you know, I talk about is openness.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
And humans naturally are judgmental people. I mean, we are very judgy and most people are judgy. Right. And it’s a natural part of who we are as human beings. But AI is not the same kind of judgy. So if you asked AI for ideas, it’s not going to just judge you unless you ask it to judge you. So in some ways, I find it easier to work with AI than humans at times. But it’s still a tool for me.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I don’t like, I don’t personify it. I don’t have a name for it. I’m sure people do have names for it, but I have asked it some complex questions to help me understand myself or how to manage something like, am I over overreacting or overanalyzing something? I have talked with ChatGPT through some challenges that I’ve faced in the last six months and just to get a different perspective and so is it like a friend? I don’t, I don’t see it like that. I just see it as another tool. So for me, it’s still very much a tool. What about you?

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yeah, well, I just want to just kind of debrief a little bit on what you’re saying. There is that even though you are interacting with it in, in a way that we might say resembles a similar interaction you may have with someone else. For example, going to a friend and saying, hey, I want to tell you a little bit about a situation, am I overthinking it? Am I over, over evaluating it? You still just see it as a, as a tool that actually is serving that purpose, actually being a person. For example, you said, I don’t give it a name. And I think that’s a really important thing just to point out because just because we are interacting with the technology and this particular technology in a very new way, perhaps that we haven’t done before, such as the example that you shared, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we should or have to personify it. And I think that was a really good distinction that you made with that. I think I’m leaning toward the fact that I don’t think at this time at least it’s going to be healthy to personify it. For example, we, you know, just take that interaction for a moment and let’s just keep within the field of creativity.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
I’m engaging with the AI bot and I’m saying, hey, do you. I’m looking for reassurance on my idea. Well, you know, depending on how I phrase that, the AI bot may be programmed and I think everyone has been referencing, particularly with ChatGPT, it’s very good at whatever you do, you’re brilliant. Right. You know, that’s not really helpful from a creativity perspective, is it? Because, you know, that human piece that we’re bringing is we need to be able to challenge each other. We need to, to your point, challenge ourselves to be a little bit more open to perspectives that perhaps we don’t know simply because we, we don’t know them. But then there’s also that empathy piece. We can read body language.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
We can see how the person’s responding. We know if it’s 10pm at night where the person’s tired. We know whether or not the project is due tomorrow or whether or not they’ve got four weeks to work on it. And I think all of those different kind of contextual factors typically will. How we will interact and respond to someone who’s providing us with feedback. And obviously at this time, I don’t see any AI platform being in a. In a position to do that. So just with that an example there, I think that, no, we should not be personifying it, bringing in a children aspect as well.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
I think it’s dangerous. You know, I do think it’s a little bit problematic. There’s been conversations around testing AI platforms, you know, as kind of like therapy tools and all these. All these other kind of, you know, virtual assistants. And I think the example you shared, I think it’s very important that we keep reminding students this is a technology, it has been programmed, that there is a kind of an algorithm behind that that has its limitations. And, you know, there’s been some horrific cases. As, you know, we don’t want students, probably children, confining in it too much. Ideally, we want the kids confining with adults that they trust and friends that they trust.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
And I hope that we don’t get in a situation where AI technology start replacing that. Those types of relationships, because I think we’re already struggling a little bit, young people with relationships.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I agree, Matt. And, you know, it brings me back to our conversation we had many seasons ago, maybe season three or four with Patricia Alvarez Oliveira was building those AI robots, the actual robots that students could talk to in the classroom. And I don’t know if you remember, you know, the students could go and do an initial consultation with the. The robot, and then it would give it advice on where to go next. So, you know, that that pushes against what you just said, which is we shouldn’t be confiding in things. And I think in some ways, if you have a teenager who is not responsive to traditional therapy and doesn’t want to talk to an adult or doesn’t feel like they have an adult, could they start there in terms of getting a grounding? Do you feel differently about that now that I’ve shifted it to that perspective?

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
No. And I don’t think it is actually different from what I shared. I think that that’s the key, is that it’s okay, I think, for kids to interact with the tool in that way, in the way that you had said it, but then for them to realize it is a technology, I am saying that they can absolutely go and ask AI to provide some prompts, get some feedback for their work. But they have to recognize that they’re interacting with a machine and they’re not interacting with a person. And I think that’s the personify bit. So we have to be mindful when we use words like a collabor, we personify it, we give it names. Because for young kids. Going back to the second question you just asked, my position is, sure, interact if you want.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
As you know, I don’t want to use the word therapist because again, I think that’s a real person and a human relationship. But use interacting with it in a way that you would interact with a therapist or interact with it in the way that you would interact with a colleague. Okay, that’s fine. But it is a technology, and I think that’s where we need to be careful about how we’re naming, which is why I do think we do want to keep calling it a tool and not a partner. And even I’ve used the word partner sometimes, but I know with my students, I keep stressing it’s a tool, it’s a tool, it’s a tool, it’s a tool, it’s not a person. What’s your takeaway with floral?

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
Well, mine was similar. Mine was really around meaningful connections. And the fact that the one thing that AI can’t do is have a meaning, make meaningful, meaningful connection. So it can give you information, but it’s not going to be able to make something connect. And that’s really where creativity lives and that meaningfulness. So I think that was my biggest insight. And I think I knew that intuitively, but it was articulated well in that episode. And so I walked away saying, yes, this is, this is the benefit of, you know, what’s happening right now is yes, AI can definitely help inspire us and give us information and data and look things up, but ultimately it’s up to us to make those meaningful connections.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yeah, totally agree. And likewise, going back to what we said, that back and forth, it can provide you with that information and you can go and facilitate a conversation, a back and forth. But ultimately, you’re the one that has to validate the ideas and to your point, connect it to the real world. Don’t want the AI doing that for you.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
So let’s talk about the next one. Let’s talk about innovation. Ish. Can I share something that I walked away with?

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yes, go for it.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
So, you know, I have a background, as you well know, because you took a course with me way back when in creative problem solving. So I came from the center for Applied Imagination, and that really houses creative problem solving, the methodology. And I know you’ve had your versed as well in different types of creative problem solving methodologies. And one of the things I really liked about what they said was they looked at all of those methodologies, there’s like 80 they looked at. And they realized that it wasn’t as much about the process as it was about the creative mindset. And it was having me think about it was making me reflect on just general creative problem solving methodologies. And there’s so many out there, but the benefit of learning them is you get to adopt that creative mindset of clarifying problems and looking at problems in different ways and generating lots of ideas. And they all sort of have similar types of process steps, but really looking at it, that it builds your creative mindset.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
And again, I think this is something I intuitively knew, but the way they articulated it was, yes, that makes a lot of sense. And I know we all sort of giggled and said, oh, I’m process agnostic, you know, so I’m not, I don’t subscribe to one particular process and, you know, I’m married to that. But I listen to all of them and I take bits and pieces from all of them. And I think that, you know, having this creative mindset that comes with learning creative process is what’s the most beneficial. So how do we even start there? And do we even need process steps to develop that creative mindset? What do you think?

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yeah, I think. I don’t know when over the last 3, 4, 5, 6, I was actually teaching design thinking, I think, to my students and then obviously going in and implementing the teacher creativity framework at schools, which I was always in this battle of. Is this actually a sequence of steps? And what I kept running into, which I think is what you’re alluding to, is that every problem typically has different types of constraints and challenges, and we’re subconsciously modifying and changing it. We might not have so much time to engage in this particular strategy for divergent thinking. Sometimes a problem might actually be more defined, still semi defined versus really ill defined, for example. And so how we choose to engage and apply these steps that are typically promoted within these different frameworks or models ultimately changes. But then the other thing that I think is really important is that as we develop certain, a certain level of expertise and repetition and habit and culture within our domains and professional environments, what I always think is that we typically develop our own type of creative problem solving process. And I think that’s the key piece.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
And I think, without a doubt, and I’ve written a chapter on this and I get my students to do it. You can go and interact with people and you can say, ah, that there is them defining the problem. Oh, that there is them generating ideas. But the idea that everyone has to go about generating ideas in exactly the same way, the idea that everyone has to go and define the problem. And as you know, sometimes I even think about iteration. Like, you know, design thinking has this thing where you kind of like ideate and then you prototype. And I’m always like, aren’t they pretty much the same thing? Because prototyping is you beginning to express ideas in the real world, put them out there, get some feedback and then modify and change it again. So that’s kind constantly about ideation.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
It’s also probably constantly about, you know, defining the problem further as well. So I, I kind of like that idea of, of kind of like thinking about it more as just a mindset. And then there’s some common core principles that we all share within our process, but not necessarily feeling like every single situational person has to have a very kind of like clear, deliberate process for every single time they go about engaging in some type of deliberate creative process.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
So Matt, what did you think about innovation? Ish. What’s something that you took away from that, that episode with Tessa and Richard?

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
You know what? I, I, I want to say something that sounds really ruthless. I don’t know any other word to say it. I think I’m getting a little bored in my effort to kind of like have this conversation about creativity and innovation. Is it the same? Is it the difference? So the reason why I bring that up is that I’m not sure I want to have another big conversation about it, but I think just kind of see innovation as more about real world application, real world creativity in the professional environment. And I think when Rich was, was talking about this idea of, of, you know, creativity is bringing something new to the world, you know, I think something like mini C creativity, I’m kind of sitting there thinking, you know, maybe that’s not innovation. You know, like coming up with a new idea or a new discovery, it’s a value to that, that’s not innovation. And likewise, you know, you could argue that everyday creativity, you know, that someone does in the classroom, maybe that’s not about innovation. So really we’re probably talking about the, the pro C element of creativity.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
You know, that’s me saying that I think I’m getting to a point where I can put a period at the end of. End of this conversation. And I think that for that reason, there might be times where I go in and say, I’m going to do a workshop on creativity. And there might be other times where I go about and say, this workshop’s about, you know, increasing innovation at your school.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I think that’s a really interesting distinction. And we have had this conversation, and actually I just wrote about it in our upcoming book, which we have finally named the Future 10 actions for fueling Creativity in Education, which will be out in 2026. Yippee.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yippee.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I was writing about the difference between creativity and innovation, and I do think it happens at the proceed level, because if we’re looking at innovation as something that happens when it gets accepted by society, you know, your everyday creativity, your little mince pies that you just made for Christmas, probably not an innovation. It’s just your everyday creativity shining through.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yes. I love that. And I am on a quest to try and bring mince pies to the United States. So if you’re listening to this right now, no, it doesn’t have meat in it. It is an amazing dish. It’s something that is a huge tradition for me, and I think mince pies are something that’s hugely popular in England, and I encourage to try one this holiday season.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
Oh, Matt, you know, we should put your favorite recipe up on your website or up on the Fueling Creativity website. So if people want to try a mince pie and send you a picture, they could.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yeah, I. Well, now you got to make me be clarify something. Number one, I’m very grateful to my wife because my. My mom used to make the mince pies. My mom made the mince pies, and then my wife got really interested in the mince pies, so she started to make them when we were going to have Christmas in England. And my mom’s sadly not with us anymore, so my. My w, you know, very graciously, you know, wants to kind of contribute that part of. Of our Christmas.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
So I’m very grateful for that. So I’d have to ask her, but she always tweaks the recipe a little bit each year, so that’s. That’s her mini creativity coming in.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
All right, let’s. Let’s tackle the last one, which was around gaming and world building.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
Yeah, no, this. This was a really great episode. I’m. I’m glad that we had an opportunity to bring it in, because we haven’t actually done a gaming, playful learning, gamification. On our show. And of course there is such a strong relationship with things like creative problem solving and gaming. I think for me, what I really liked from our conversation with Trent and Steven was this, when specifically around creativity was this idea that, you know, we should think more around the Mini C and Little C aspect though I will, I will say that Stephen and Trent are both really focused on the application and the transfer of knowledge to the real world. So it’s not just about learning how to solve problems in the game.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
It’s, it’s developing the skills where you can, where you can then go and solve problems in the real world. That’s that transfer of knowledge. But you know, the, the Mini C thing is what I felt was, was the most easy way I felt from a transfer perspective that I could see personally. So for example, I’m playing, I’ve started playing this game called Restaurant Tycoon on Roadblocks with my youngest and it’s a wonderful game and I’m not a big gamer, I’m not a big fan of my kids gaming. But that being said, I do recognize that, you know, it’s something that’s important to them and I want to try and be involved. And so when there’s windows of opportunities, such as Thanksgiving, I went and grabbed a coffee with my youngest and I said, let’s go and play Restaurant Tycoon. And what was fascinating with Restaurant Tycoon is you create your restaurant and then what you have to do is you have to go and lay out, you know, you get your chairs and tables, choose what dishes that you’re serving, and then slowly you get customers coming in and the more customers you get, the more money you get. And then you get to expand, expand your menu a little bit, you know, as you get better and better.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
But then obviously you get choices of where to spend your money. And so this is where it gets really fascinating, right, because you have to say, right, do I bring in a server, do I bring in a cook? Because at the beginning you’re doing everything and then you bring in the cook and you say, right, well if I’ve got the cook, I’m going to be the person who’s meeting the guests, getting them to sit down, taking their orders and then clearing away the dishes. But then you also start thinking a little bit about where is my skill set. So I literally said to myself, you know what, I’m going to be the extra cook when we’re busy and then I’m actually going to invest money on having multiple servers. And the reason why I was doing that and I have no knowledge of being, you know, running a restaurant, but I recognized that actually turning around the tables was the most important thing. So getting the dishes out is important. And turning around the tables, that became my main focus. And I established a system on that.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
And then once we started to get that system, we were turning around that stuff really, really quickly and then using the money to expand the restaurant. And that’s what we were doing and, and interacting with my son. He was starting to see that we were starting to have a conversation about the choices we’re making to turn around those tables. And so the reason why I bring that up is that ultimately, and I think this is, I’m paraphrasing Steve Steven Slaughter’s words, but you know, the world has a lot of complicated systems. You know, systems are quite often complex and how we interact with those systems and choose to be creative with those systems, we’ve had conversations about that in previous episodes, is ultimately part of that, that, that big part of creativity. And so even at the mini C level, I was making all these discoveries that I never even thought about before. When I go to a restaurant, the choices and decisions that you make. So that was mini scene.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
It was playing out, it was so obvious to me. And I sat there and I was like, you know what? This game isn’t that bad. And they’ve got all these different versions from, from the theme park tycoons to business tycoons. There’s all these different games. And so we’ve got all these games where, where kids can just go and play real world. And as they’re playing real world, they’re engaging mini seed creativity. So that was my takeaway and I probably have to let him have more game time now.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I think that sounds like so much fun and it makes me curious about Restaurant Tycoon and something that, you know, a. Let’s see, your youngest is Nate.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
That’s for very good cause. Yes. He’s nine next month. Correct.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
Okay, that’s what I thought. So he’s 8 years old. How often would an 8 year old get to learn about how a restaurant might run? So I think that’s an interesting perspective of playing the game and learning how a restaurant might work and how to get it to work more effectively. I think for me, that episode as you know, I was a little bit confused and part of it is my own fault because this was sort of a last minute episode that we pulled in and I thought world building, which is what they were talking about, their latest book, which was around some sort of tech around building worlds, because I think of like Minecraft building worlds, right? So when we went into the episode and they’re talking about, you know, gaming and gamification, I was a little bit in total transparency confused about how do we actually use this world building inside of the classroom? Because I was thinking it was tech. So when we, when we got off the call, I’m telling this to our listeners when I got, when we got off that interview and I, and I called Matt and I said, please explain to me the differences. And what you explained was that it wasn’t necessarily tech. It could be tech, but could also just be gaming, like regular gaming. Like how do you gamify something? So, you know, when we were talking about understanding where the different states go, you don’t need an app, although there is a really good app around that is a gaming app around understanding where all the states or the countries are, which is called Stack the States.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
And I have played it at my age just to make sure I know where all the states are. And you stack the states and they fall over and things like that. But you could do that in the classroom as a game and have gamification elements to it, which you explained so well to me that day. And I think for me that really helped me clarify this idea of gaming inside the classroom. And it’s something that, you know, that that word is thrown around a lot. You know, let’s, you know, gaming, gaming, gaming. And I think of, when I think of gaming, I think of my 17 year old son playing games on his computer. So it’s really tech focused.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
But I also, I’m a huge gamer in like board games. Like, I love board games. Rummy Cube is my favorite, although my daughter always kicks my butt. But I love actual games. So thinking about what you said to me was like finding gaming elements to bring into the classroom was really impactful. So I think that’s when I finally got my head wrapped around this idea of gaming inside the classroom. And not something we’ve talked about in our 12 seasons of this podcast. 11 seasons.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
It hasn’t been 12 yet. It’s been 11.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
No, but actually you’ve made me think about an important point that was also made on the show. It wasn’t made explicitly, but they, you know, I asked what’s the difference between gamification and game based learning? And what I felt they were talking about is game based learning is quite often now referred to as playful learning. And I think that’s a big distinction because you’re Right. When you hear the word gaming, your brain does typically in today’s world go toward an individual on a computer playing a video game. And so making that distinction of playful learning. And I think that yes, you can gamify elements such as adding rewards or like some type of mechanic associated with, with games to make something more engaging, more appealing, but that doesn’t necessarily make it, it playful learning. And the idea of that playful learning piece is that, you know, again, I think I’m, I’m paraphrasing Steven Soder’s words, but the idea that, that students have choices. So and, and that’s that kind of world building element that you’re designing a world, they’re engaging that imagination and they’re getting to play.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
And as they’re playing, they’re making decisions. And Stephen said, you know, you are the guide on the side as they’re engaging in that playful learning. And I do think that we have touched on play and playful learning in the show. We just probably haven’t always connected it. You know, I think there was a big instructional design element here as well in that episode. We probably haven’t always connected it that sometimes this is actually a strategy used by instructional designers. They get their learning objective and then they make the choose the modality of being a playful learning experience.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
Well, Matt, I think it’s time for us to wrap up. But it has been another great season of the podcast.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
It has been. And you know, one of the things I think was really great. We spoke about this is way back early in season 11, but we had some new themes and it was really cool about talking about micro schools. And I keep thinking about Henry Smith when he said, look, if you’ve got $3 billion and you’re still not seeing the results, what is $3.5 billion going to do? And of course, that allowed us to kind of really expand and think about all these different ways that we can deliver formal schooling to students and that creativity in the system. That’s probably my biggest highlight of season 11. Do you have like a kind of like overall big highlight?

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
I think that has been my, my biggest theme that’s come up is in this last year, our biggest theme has been around, you know, micro schools, different types of education and how we might look at education in different ways. And I think, you know, we’ve, we’ve consistently had this conversation, do we need an evolution or a revolution? And I am leaning towards revolution at this point because I just don’t think that what we’re doing is going to prepare our students for the future, especially with the onset of a AI and so I am all for a revolution. I might have to update that chapter I wrote 15 years ago.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
All right, well, listen, I love it. I love the revolution piece. And I think also, you know, I might be coming around to it, possibly the idea of small revolutions that take place within these micro schools. Now, just, just before we do go, I just want to do a shout out that next week. We’ve got actually a kind of like, final debrief of season 11. We’ve got Jimmy Wilson, our emerging scholar in res, who, you know, listened to all of the episodes and goes and finds some research. So it’s going to be a little bit more of, of kind of connecting, bridging that gap between what’s come up on, on the season and what’s currently being done in research around creativity and education. So make sure you check that episode out.

Dr. Matthew Warwood:
And also, Cindy and I will be finishing the year 2025 with our final year review. So if you’re listening, we hope to see you in next week, but we know that many of you will be finishing up your school year. For those finishing up the semester, we wish you a wonderful, happy holiday season. My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Dr. Cindy Burnett:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by Cindy Burnett and Matthew Warwood. Our podcast assistant is Anne Fernando and our editor is Sheikh.