Matthew Worwood:
Hello, everyone. My name is Doctor Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood:
This is the fuelling creativity in education podcast.

Cyndi Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.

Matthew Worwood:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood:
So let’s begin today we have a.

Cyndi Burnett:
Very special debrief episode just for you.

Matthew Worwood:
Now, as a reminder, our debrief episodes are where we debrief interviews with our guests. And in season eight, we’ve actually expanded the number of guests that we have on the show. Twelve. And we have more debriefs every three episodes. We have our debrief session. And today’s debrief session, which is the third of season eight, is with Jim DeVivo, who is a drama educator. Kristen Lehman, who spoke a little bit about twice exceptional learners and also the concept of math, artistry. And Fouart Lamanoff, who is a university educator who spoke a lot about how he’s been integrated chat GPT-3 into his classroom environment.

Matthew Worwood:
So, Cindy, why don’t you take us away with your first takeaway?

Cyndi Burnett:
Okay, so my first takeaway comes from Jim DeVivo, who, as you might remember, Matt was a colleague of mine and I went to undergraduate with him, and now he works as a theater teacher in a high school. And I think what really resonated with me about his episode is the nature of improvisation in the classroom and teaching kids about theater and how much impact that can have on students, especially those students that don’t necessarily fit into pockets of sports or high academics or robotics or sciences, that those kids really have a place to thrive.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, and my takeaway was actually closely connected to that because I remember us talking a little bit about improvisation and my time doing some improvisation where I had to be a champagne and a champagne bottle and imagine being shaken up and then someone taking the lid off and all these kind of crazy behavioral movements that I had to do in response to these prompts. And it got us into that wider conversation about what is it about theatre and being part of that kind of theater community that kind of brings out that creativity, self imagination, and reduces the social barriers. And I think that relates to what you’re saying, because there’s people who haven’t been able to find their social community within sports or within classroom environments, academics, video games, but within the theater, they seem to kind of really flourish where perhaps in other environments they don’t flourish as well. And, you know, what’s your thoughts about that? Because I posed that. You know, I remember posing that to Jim. What is it? What is it about theatre that does this? And I’ve been really thinking about it. I’ve got some thoughts, but before I share mine, what’s your thoughts on that?

Cyndi Burnett [00:03:06]:
Man, it’s so funny that you bring this up because I just got off a Zoom call with James Kaufman, who we’ve had on the show now twice, and his colleague Daniel Rowe. And you were talking about this exactly topic because they’re writing a book and actually the latest book, which is called lessons in creativity from musical theater characters. We’re going to bring them on the show in a few weeks, so stay tuned for that. But in talking to them about my own experiences in theater and growing up as a theater kid, I think that the teachers that help these kids feel comfortable becoming other characters. And I was telling them the story about my theater teacher, whose name was Paul Hangauer, and he, you know, this was back in the late 1980s, and he used to smoke, like in his office. And I came to him and I was cast as the artful Dodger. And I said to him, I said, I just don’t think I could be a boy. I was 13 and I was very self conscious.

Cyndi Burnett:
And I said, I just don’t think I can be a boy. He said, as he smoked through several cigarettes, Siddi, my dear, you can be anything you want to be. And there was something about that, that you can be anything that you want to be on the stage and in this theater community that creates that safety of, there’s really no wrong way to do it, which is so connected to what we talk about in creativity.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah. And I’m going to kind of build on that a little bit because I have been thinking about it and I think that, I think you started to touch a little bit on it. I think there are other art forms require certain skills as barriers to entry. Right. Like so, you know, if you, if you want to play the trumpet, there’s obviously a certain level of skill that you need to develop to play the trumpet if you want to. You know, quite often we talk a lot about kids being able to draw, but, you know, there’s that point where a, you need resources and b, you start, need to have certain skills to kind of like express the image that’s in your head. But within theater, I wonder if that the barrier to entry is. Is pretty much just super duper low.

Matthew Worwood:
Like there is no barrier to entry, number one. Number two, it’s so connected to actually how we initially begin to engage in the world through our imagination, through that type of play, you know, the plague that we would see in the kindergarten classroom, the home corner, imagining you’re this, imagining you’re that. So it’s actually something that we’ve already got a certain comfort level to have. However, even within that, there are still certain kind of personality traits and, you know, social factors that might prevent us from fully letting go and being the person that we want to be or being the person that we want to imagine. But within the theater community, when you’re in it long enough, it’s almost like there’s a point at which everyone begins to accept everyone for who they are, and they just let go. And it’s that letting go point. I’m not quite sure how it happens, but once you let go, and it seems that there’s a lot of success in these kind of youth theater programs where kids do learn to let go, where they just get to your point, be anything they want to be. And I think there’s something super duper special about that.

Matthew Worwood:
And I don’t think there’s really anywhere else, particularly in a school environment, where you get to be anyone you want to be. Because if you’re. If you’re in the sports team, you’ve got that social pressure. Am I. Am I the best athlete in the team? Am I the one that’s just making the cut? And so, you know, I kind of feel like, you know, I’m comfortable. When am I going to be the one that’s kind of, like, pushed out of the squad, you know? And then there’s all these social dynamics that go in with how you’re meant to behave as an athlete, for example. But in with theater, you just be anything you want to be. And I think there’s something very, very special to that.

Matthew Worwood:
And then once you begin to accept who you are and you begin to suddenly feel comfortable, in essence, in your own skin, then you get to have so much joy and passion within that space. And that, again, I’m still thinking about it, but I think that low barrier to entry is the thing where I think is particularly marvelous. And, of course, when you think about it from that perspective, it’s why probably we need to have more kids interacting with theatre communities.

Cyndi Burnett:
I agree, Matt, and I think what we really need in our communities is more theater programs for kids to have that opportunity to experience things.

Matthew Worwood:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, curiosity to create.

Cyndi Burnett:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

Matthew Worwood:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org comma or check out the links in the show notes for this episode.

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Matt, let’s switch to Kristen Lehman. What’s something that you took away from Kristen’s episode?

Matthew Worwood:
I mean, Kristen spoke, as I said at the beginning of the show, about this concept of mathematical artistry. And then she also, we spoke and started the show talking about twice exceptional learners. But there was this moment also in the show, and I think it might come within her tips at the end of where she suggested to educators, or rather encourage educators to, you know, embrace their own curiosity of students. And then provided an example in the show where she said, for example, if a child is colouring their grass red, get curious and ask, why are they coloring their grass red? And it seems so simple. But I found myself going away and saying, wow, how many times do we observe young children doing unusual things that kind of catch our attention? Because they’re not what we would typically expect. And in essence, by that standing out, it has hurt our curiosity a little bit, but we don’t always follow it through and say, why are you doing that? What’s the story behind that? And I just wonder that might be a way into more of that childlike joy that we so often see and cherish when it comes to children. So that was my takeaway. Get curious about your students.

Matthew Worwood:
And I will say, then I went away and I said to myself, I’ve actually been trying to make an effort to do that recently because my eldest son has been teasing me a little bit about the fact that I’m basically not cool and I don’t know a lot about pop culture anymore. I’ve kind of reached that age where I don’t know what words mean, I don’t know who’s top of the music charts, I don’t know what the cool tv shows are at the moment. And I’ve been within my students in my W class, and I’ve actually referenced my W class quite a lot in season eight. But the students are producing work and exploring work related to them and their world. And so I’m finding myself listening to Beyonce following some news articles about the Grammys. I’m finding myself getting into K pop and learning a little bit about K pop. And all of this is coming about because I’m actually, I do think I’m enacting that concept of trying to get curious about my students. And it’s actually, I think, aiding my growth at the moment.

Cyndi Burnett:
I think it’s also funny, as we’re doing this on video as well, that you’re giving us the thumbs up and the thumbs up bubble is popping up. And I don’t know if you know this, Matt, but we’re, you know, you can see that. Do you know even how you set that up?

Matthew Worwood:
It’s great. I mean, I suppose you’re expressing your curiosity of me, the student in the classroom. What’s the thumb button? And to your point, yes, I’ve noticed it popping up. I don’t know how it popped up. You know, I’m not going to start pushing buttons and trying to get it off now, but for our viewers who are watching us on YouTube right now, I’ve got a thumb that’s popping, popping up, up. And I’m obviously giving myself a thumbs up.

Cyndi Burnett:
That’s fun. I think that’s great fun. I love the idea of getting curious about things, especially when they’re not, as you expect, like the red grass and the blue sun and thinking about why they’re seeing things in different ways and looking at things from multiple perspectives. I love that. I think the thing that came out for me with the Kristen episode was around twice exceptional students. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve brought up this topic of gifted students and twice exceptional students and bright students and how often educators don’t know very much about it. And the reason why they don’t know that much about it is because they’re not trained in, often trained in teachers college about these types of students. And I think it’s really unfortunate.

Cyndi Burnett:
And I think it’s something if I could spend an extra 10 hours a week on, I would is to work out how to build in more courses for teachers to understand what a gifted student in the classroom behaves like, acts like, because it’s not the student that’s sitting there quietly and just doing all the work at exceptional levels. It’s much more complex than that. And I think particularly twice exceptional students, I mean, that wasn’t a phrase I heard of until actually Scott Barry Kaufman’s book, who we interviewed on the show when he wrote one of his books and talked about his own life and being twice exceptional. And so I think it’s just language that we should be teaching teachers so they can be on the lookout for it and that they can help accommodate students who have these particular needs.

Matthew Worwood:
And just to kind of elaborate a little bit more, the key point with twice exceptional learners is the fact that there might be a learning disability or something potentially shrouding that gifted and talentedness that exists behind that. So, you know, students, for example, that may have ADHD tendencies or even have ADHD and have been diagnosed as ADHD, we might primarily look at that and, you know, and maybe be focused on some of the behavioral challenges associated with that condition and miss the fact that behind those scenes there’s a lot of talent that is actually going missed because we’re not tapping into it. And I’d add, in addition to being able to identify, of course, is being able to then know what to do and how to kind of like, harness that creative potential, in essence, will be an important part of that training as well.

Cyndi Burnett:
Right. So let’s talk about what.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, what’s your takeaway?

Cyndi Burnett:
So I’ve really enjoyed talking about artificial intelligence in the classroom and how it can be used. And I think one of the things I really liked about his episode was around assisted brainstorming and having sort of using chat GPT as an assistant in brainstorming new ideas. And it’s something that I use chat GPT for. Like, I know, you know, based on the research articles that I’ve read that it typically comes up with standard ideas, but I know what I’m stuck and I’m coming up with ideas and I’m like, I just need more ideas to like. Because there’s something in creative problem solving called force connections, where if you take something random and you throw it in and then you think about what ideas spark from that, that’s what GPT can do for you, is give you these ideas that may be outlandish and but maybe you need to ask for them to be outlandish. And then you start to build on those ideas and then going back and forth in terms of generating more ideas and how he’s been using in the classroom, I think it’s fascinating, and I think it will be even more fascinating to look back on this episode with what and maybe two years down the line when we’re on season twelve, to think about what teachers are doing at that point in time. So it’s going to be interesting to see this evolution of AI in the classroom with creativity as we look from the beginning of our podcast, which was three years ago, and thinking about it in the future.

Matthew Worwood:
Absolutely. I mean, in essence, I think Fawart’s episode, for some teachers who are teaching certain subjects, particularly maybe project based learning environments, you could almost see as a case study. And the first thing I’d say about Fouart’s episode is you can see that he’s brought this in and has that kind of R and D approach to it, working with the students. Hey, let’s collaboratively work together to identify the strengths and weaknesses of integrating chat GPT 3.5 because he made a reference that it was 3.5 because that’s what was accessible to his students, how that kind of integrates within the creative process and the creative process situated within the project based learning environment that he had created. And this certainly, I would say probably, at least from what I’ve observed, most of the research is focusing on utilizing generative AI as kind of an ideation tool, helping generate ideas. And what we’re seeing from the research, of course, as we know, is the judgment, being able to evaluate all of these ideas as well. But I’ve been thinking a lot about the knowledge that’s needed, whether to design the prompt or even to go up and kind of like conduct that evaluation at the end or put the right prompt in, that yields the ideas that you want. And I think that what I liked about fro Art’s episode, and there was a little bit of design research integrated into this, is going in and conducting some design research into your audience, into the problem.

Matthew Worwood:
So you actually generate enough knowledge about the problem that then allows you to go and begin interacting with chat sheet 3.5 by going and crafting that prompt and then being able to evaluate those ideas, and then at times determining whether or not those ideas actually were useful for your project. And I think that’s really, really important, is that, yes, it’s a great tool for ideation, but I still think you need that front end and back end knowledge in order to assist you in that process.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, Matt, I have to say, I think we’ve had a great 8th season.

Matthew Worwood:
It’s been fun. I’ve really. I actually have. I was a little worried at first when I kind of proposed the idea of going up to twelve episodes, doing debriefs every three episodes. But as you know, one of the reasons why we’re doing more debriefs is when we, when we’re interacting with with our listeners. They actually say they enjoy debriefs, and I really value that. But actually, I really enjoy recording our debriefs as well. And by going and doing a debrief every three episodes, we get to actually debrief in detail each episode, which I think is helpful.

Matthew Worwood:
And as I said, it allows us to kind of reflect and identify those takeaways that help bridge the gap. So having more debriefs has been one of my favorite things about season eight. I know we’ve got another three great episodes coming up before we finish the season. Yes. And, yeah, I think season eight is probably my favorite. I think it’s going to be my favorite. We’ve recorded all the episodes now, so I don’t think we can. Yeah, I can say that with some confidence.

Cyndi Burnett:
So this concludes this debrief episode of the feeling, creativity, and education podcast. Stay tuned for our next three episodes and debrief. And then we’ve got two very special podcast episodes, and we won’t share those yet, just yet. A wonderful summer series that Matt and I are planning for you. And then we will be back in the fall for season nine. My name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood:
And my name is Doctor Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
This episode was produced by Matthew Werwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create, and our editor is Sam Atkinson.