Cyndi Burnett:
I walked away really thinking about listening, listening to the people who are struggling to help them move forward in problem solving. And I just think that I don’t do that enough personally. Like, I really need to stop. I’m the kind of person who really likes to implement ideas and take action. If you need someone to take action on ideas, I’m your gal. But when it comes to stopping and really, really taking, like, deep listening, immersing myself in a culture to understand what teachers need, before I go in, I think I need to do more of that. So it left me thinking about working with teachers and doing professional development with teachers and really understanding the struggles they’re facing as a school district, as individuals, before I go in and try to help them bring creativity in.

Matthew Worwood:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood:
This is the fueling creativity in education. Podcast.

Cyndi Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the fields of education.

Matthew Worwood:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood:
So let’s begin. Hello, and welcome back to our first Debrief episode of the 23 24 academic year, but also our first Debrief episode of season seven. Cindy, how is the new academic year going for you? And also how is the new job going at Curiosity to Create?

Cyndi Burnett:
It’s going? Phenomenal. Matt I love the start of the school year. There’s something really magical about the first day and my kids going back to school and talking with teachers who are going back to school. How about you? How’s your beginning of your semester going?

Matthew Worwood:
I think it’s going well. I mean, there’s a lot of enthusiasm from both the faculty and also the students, which is great. And obviously we want to try and maintain that enthusiasm and excitement even when we start facing those bottlenecks and feeling the pressure of time constraints. But every year I feel just a little bit more organized, which assists in addressing those challenges when they arise.

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Matt, let’s talk about our five guests of the first part of season seven, which they were katie Trowbridge, who runs Curiosity to create. We had Izzy Giselle, who is the improv former educator, current organizational alchemist. Then we had Morgan Vain, who was the CEO of design for Emergence. Then we had Peter Witchtel, who was the teacher, the high school teacher who came up with all those great ideas for his classroom. And then we had James Kaufman, who is one of the leading researchers in the field of creativity. So these debrief episodes, we each pick three things that we walked away with, and we don’t know what each other picked, and we talk about what we learned from those five episodes. So Matt, what’s your first key insight?

Matthew Worwood:
I think I’ll start off with our episode with Katie, which was our first episode of the season, as you referenced. And we got into a great discussion around critical thinking and creative thinking. And I think part of the reason why it was such a great discussion is because it’s something that Katie has not only thought a lot about, but kind of integrated it into the work that she does. And you and I have spoken a lot about this as know this idea of creativity as a construct and then how that might slightly differentiate itself from creative thinking, which contributes to creativity, and how we study creativity and outcomes that we consider as being creative. And the discussion really centered around the importance of critical thinking, and we spoke a lot about the relationship with convergence as well. So we’ve got all of these ideas, and now you have to think critically about the problem, about the people impacted by the problem, and select that idea that is most relevant. And without that critical thinking, we can sometimes begin to make assumptions. We can perhaps sometimes select the idea on the wrong piece of information.

Matthew Worwood:
And that discussion continued to highlight to me the value of critical thinking as well as creative thinking as we continue to try and bridge the gap between what we understand about creativity and how we can cultivate and promote it in a classroom environment.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, I think what was interesting, Matt, is our discussion after that conversation because I always say that I teach creative thinking, because when I say I teach creativity, people often go to, oh, I teach creative writing or I teach the arts, but they don’t really understand the thinking aspect of it oftentimes. And so I’ve always know I teach creative thinking for a living. And I think your view is more like when you talk about teacher creativity, you talk about creativity not as much creative thinking. And you said to me after that session with Katie, now I see how you see creativity embedded as well in critical thinking because it does play a role in critical thinking. But we often, as researchers look at it, and teachers, they often see it as creative thinking is divergent thinking and critical thinking is convergent thinking. But creativity actually plays a role in convergent thinking and critical thinking as well. So if you’re looking at selecting ideas, it’s not just about, okay, I’m going to go with this idea, but is this idea going to bring me novelty? That is useful?

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, that’s an interesting perspective. We could keep talking on and on about this. When I think about creativity, I think about the sociocultural perspective as well. There are so many factors associated with creativity, and I think a lot of those factors expand well beyond, particularly when we’re talking about kind know, little C, pro C and big C creativity. So many of those factors expand well beyond creative thinking, the individual and arguably beyond critical thinking. As you know, you think about James Kaufman, when he’s referenced, I think, for the second time in our show, he says, well, it all counts. I think what it comes down to is there’s so many things that we can do in a classroom environment to increase the creative output of our students, to increase the creative output of our work. And critical thinking, like creative thinking is part of it.

Matthew Worwood:
I don’t know if you’re saying that creative thinking is also critical thinking or creative thinking is part of critical thinking. I do see them as two different things along with, I don’t know, another 1020 30 40 5200 other things connected to creativity. But I love the discussion. I just continue to keep evolving every time I interact with you on this topic, Cindy.

Cyndi Burnett:
Yes. And I think that creativity I don’t know if it’s creative thinking or creativity plays a role in the critical thinking aspect that we need to keep novelty alive, essentially, because so often we just crush the novelty that we just spent all this time coming up with. Right. So we need to make sure so it’s like a critical perspective of the creative. How about that?

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah. And I have to tell you this conversation, we are probably doing a lot of critical thinking as we wrestle with this relationship between how you and I view creativity and also that relationship between critical thinking and creative thinking. So, Cindy, let’s get ourselves out the weeds with this discussion. What was your takeaway?

Cyndi Burnett:
So one of my takeaways I don’t know if it was a takeaway or just a gigantic smile. So when we spoke with Peter, which tell and I apologize, Peter, if I’m pronouncing your name incorrectly again, but when we spoke with Peter, who is a high school educator who worked with his students to come up with a 204 foot charcuterie board and all the elements that came with that and the collaboration and the creativity and bringing in science and math and it was just so inspiring and just thinking about the things that people are. Doing out there that are really just I mean, in my opinion, like, over the top amazing. Like, things you wouldn’t expect. Things that are surprising. I love those sorts of stories because they’re so inspiring to other teachers. And it was inspiring to me because even if I’m not going to create a 204 foot chicuterie board with my students, I’m still going to think about what are some cool, interesting things that I can really bring to make their experience memorable or really interesting or stand out in some sort of way.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, I really liked it. I can’t remember how you phrased the question, but you asked Peter a question to that point. Is that right? Not everyone has the means or capacity to go and take on a project the size of your project, but you phrased it in a way that invited Peter to share different approaches or perhaps different magnitudes of projects to which a teacher or a community of teachers could take on. I would highly recommend to anyone who is somewhat ambitious, adventurous, has a high tolerance for ambiguity to go and check out that episode with Peter. Because just the idea, particularly maybe know small school communities, to embark on a journey, perhaps a year journey, to go and break a record of some sort that in itself, I think is very, very special. And as we covered in that episode, there’s so many different aspects of creativity and problem solving that goes into embarking on that journey, that goes into achieving that goal.

Cyndi Burnett:
Yes, and I love the fact that it really brings to life all of these different creative thinking skills, these creativity skills that we talk about. And I bet all of those students, when they’re 80 years old, will still be talking about how they built that charcuterie board. And those are the kinds of experiences that really stick with us and are memorable and enjoyable and even in a small capacity. When I ask people, one of the first questions I ask people is, can you think of the most creative educational experience you’ve ever had? And oftentimes people can’t think of a creative educational experience, but I can tell you when they can, they light up. They tell me all the details. They tell me about the instructor, where they were, how old they were, and I just want to see more of that happening inside the classrooms.

Matthew Worwood:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, Curiosity to Create.

Cyndi Burnett:
Curiosity to Create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

Matthew Worwood:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett:
To learn more, check out Curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode. Okay, Matt, back to you. What is your second key insight?

Matthew Worwood:
My second key insight. And, you know, there’s so many different episodes of my favorite episodes for lots of different types of reasons. So it comes down to kind of know what perspective or what hat I’m wearing on a given day. But I really enjoyed our episode with Izzy Giselle, and I think I enjoyed it simply probably because we did that activity around improvisation. But there was a few things that I want to just kind of like, share as takeaways or kind of report back after that discussion. The first is I love this idea of we spoken a lot about improvisation. I remember Caroline Brookfield in I Want to say season two or season three was also a comedian, spoke a little bit about the use of improvisation to help promote creativity and how we can use improvisation in a classroom. You know, in that conversation with Izzy, what helped me make the connection stronger was the discussion around constraints.

Matthew Worwood:
First of all is that typically when you engage in some type of improv exercise, there are constraints. And so the activity that we did in the show, for those of you who didn’t listen to it, is he had us kind of create a story, and we had to go around one after the other saying one word. And I had referenced the fact that it wasn’t two words, it was one word. And that was a constraint that I found quite difficult at the very beginning. I like the connection to constraints, and collectively we produced a creative outcome despite the constraints of the challenge. The other piece that I really liked from that activity was the discussion around sometimes you’re leading and other times you’re following. I specifically remember with that activity, I would say a word to set Izzy up for the next word. But then there was other times that I was following from what you had given me, and Izzy had referenced as we was discussing the activity later on, he’d referenced the fact that sometimes when we’re engaging in the creative process, we’re leading and other times we’re following.

Matthew Worwood:
And so I thought that was kind of a really good takeaway to kind of think and reflect upon, particularly from a classroom environment when you’re engaging students in a collaborative process. And the final thing less of a takeaway was me to say that I’ve been using improvisation with my class over the last couple of weeks. It’s been a wonderful experience. I’m really surprised about how comfortable the students have been as I’ve kind of picked on them and got them to stand up and role play different scenarios associated with the learning objectives that I’m trying to teach them in that particular lesson.

Cyndi Burnett:
I love the fact that you’ve brought it into your class and you’re already trying things out. Matt, congratulations on giving it a try and taking a risk. I’ve always found that my students enjoy doing improv if I bring in my own enthusiasm, but I recognize not all teachers feel comfortable doing things like that. And I really, really wish I think this didn’t make my top three, but it was definitely an honorable mention that I really, really wish that teachers had a chance to take an improv class in their teacher training because it really showcases cognitive flexibility and playfulness and humor and just being open to ideas. I mean, it really exemplifies the creativity skills that we talk so much about on this podcast. And I think taking an improv class as a teacher is a great idea. So for those of you listening. We will have a workshop on the Creative Thinking network around Improv, so I hope to keep you posted on that, Matt, and maybe you can join as well.

Matthew Worwood:
Oh, that’s great. Thanks for sharing, Cindy. All right, what’s your second takeaway?

Cyndi Burnett:
My second takeaway was Morgan Vane’s episode around emergence and design thinking. And I walked away really thinking about listening, listening to the people who are struggling to help them move forward in problem solving. And I just think that I don’t do that enough. Personally, I really need to stop. I’m the kind of person who really likes to implement ideas and take action. If you need someone to take action on ideas, I’m your gal. But when it comes to stopping and really taking deep listening, immersing myself in a culture to understand what teachers need before I go in, I think I need to do more of that. So it left me thinking about working with teachers and doing professional development with teachers and really understanding the struggles they’re facing as a school district, as individuals, before I go in and try to help them bring creativity in.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, that’s a really great takeaway, and I think you’re highlighting such an important principle of design thinking. I know know. I’ve got so much to talk on the topic of design thinking because obviously it’s something that I do a lot in, not just my work at the University of Connecticut, but also when I’m working with teachers. And one of the main principles of design thinking is this idea of understanding not the problem. One of the big things of design thinking is understanding the problem. Yes, but understanding it from the perspective, as is often referred to as the end user. I’m always sensitive to using the word end user in a teaching and learning environment, but the end of the day, typically teachers are using and experiencing the outcome of our actions. And so end user, I think, is still applicable even in that environment.

Matthew Worwood:
And when we go about engaging in a design thinking process, we have to get a really good understanding of the people who are going to be impacted by our actions and using the thing that we’re designing. Otherwise, we’re making a whole bunch of assumptions about them. And as you’ve referenced, the ability to listen, to reflect is critical within the design thinking process. And the reason why I’ve taken some time to answer your takeaway is because it was almost one of my takeaways in that I discussed with Morgan some of the challenges in the real world when doing this, because design research takes time, and design research is where you go and do your best to listen to the end user. And when I’m working with students or even just working with teachers, sometimes we already feel we know what the solution is. And it might be that we do know what the solution is because we’ve got a lot of experience. But if we haven’t really committed to listening and fully understanding what we perceive as a solution from the perspective of the person who’s interacting with that solution, we could be missing an opportunity to tweak it or modify it in a way that would make it so much better than it actually is. And listening is hard, and I also feel that I suffer from that as well.

Matthew Worwood:
And you throw in the fact that it’s a fast path, and you throw in the fact that we’ve got challenges of time constraints, which was another thing I spoke in Morgan’s episode. It’s hard to find the time to listen and then find the time to take what you heard and begin to modify a solution that perhaps you were so excited to be implementing and getting started with anyway, right?

Cyndi Burnett:
And not just listening, but active listening. Like really focusing in on every word that someone says and being able to have the brain space to take it in and really reflect on it. I think it’s really challenging.

Matthew Worwood:
Absolutely, it is. I remember reading something that Richard Branson had written on a LinkedIn page about the know he spoke about quite often when he’s in meetings. People almost like, present themselves as listening, but they’re actually thinking about the next thing that they want to say. And I’ve spent years trying to be better at because and I’ll tell you what, Cindy, it’s one of the things I love about the podcast, because it forces us to listen to what our guests are bringing us and it forces me to listen to what you’re bringing to the conversation to make sure that I’m responding to what you’re bringing, as opposed to letting my brain wonder on what I want to say next. And as soon as we’re starting to wonder what we want to say next and to put it back into the context we’re talking about or thinking about what we’re going to do because we feel we’ve now solved the problem, right. We are actually not listening. We’re not actively listening in that moment, right?

Cyndi Burnett:
And literally as you’re talking to me about that, I’m thinking, I’m going through the same thing right now as I’m listening to you. So I’m trying to really be active and listen to you. But then sometimes, especially on the podcast, it’s like I have to respond right away, I’ve been listening to you. Or if I’ve missed a beat and I’ve sort of spaced out for a second, I’m like, how do I get back in? So it is really funny, especially in the context of thinking about it in the podcast. Love it.

Matthew Worwood:
So, Cindy, I’ll share with you my final takeaway, and I’m going to stick with our conversation with Morgan because, as I’ve referenced, I’m really passionate about design thinking and try and get better at teaching some of the core principles of design thinking in my classroom environment. And Morgan offered a specific strategy to assist us when we’re trying to get a better sense of the user and the user needs. And that was the idea of shadowing. And I think shadowing is an activity that we can do quite easily in the classroom environment. And in the example Morgan had spoken a little bit about imagining that you have a particular disability, for example. So what I think I might do is bring in my crutches from when I had my knee operation last year and actually have students move around the building with crutches. Because when I was on crutches, even though it was, I think, for about six, seven days, it was the first time I’d ever been on crutches, and I was suddenly in a situation where I was developing a better understanding of why it’s so important for people to have disabled bays near their destination. The challenges of steps, the challenges of opening a door, the challenges of carrying something and whether it’s crutches or another way to which we can try and actually step into the shoes of the end user or step into the shoes of someone else who might be experiencing the problem, but see it from a perspective that it’s very difficult for us to see or experience it from.

Matthew Worwood:
This concept of shadowing, I think, is a wonderful activity to just get students thinking about that.

Cyndi Burnett:
I love that, Matt, and I think if we look at it from a teacher perspective and professional development and going into a school and observing what teachers are doing in schools, because every school is different, and every school has its own culture. So even if you’ve been a teacher for 20 years going into another school, you’re going to have a whole nother set of complexities that maybe you haven’t had before. So I think being able to shadow schools that I’m working with is something that I was thinking after that is like, how can I get into a school before I go and work with them on professional development and creativity and get an experience of what it’s like to be a teacher in the classroom? And it would vary between one school district to the next school district based on the values and the culture of the school.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, great idea. And it’s something that I haven’t shadowed, but I do presurveys to get a better understanding, and I’m sure you can relate. I’ve implemented the same workshop in lots of different schools, and if you don’t fully understand who you’re working with, it’s going to be very different. All right, so what’s your final takeaway, Cindy?

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Matt, I want to talk about James Kaufman and our double espresso with him, because we talked about the creativity advantage and the five insights that he had about the benefits of creativity. So he talked about self insight, healing, connection, drive, and legacy. And I walked away with so many more questions I wish we could bring him back to ask him, because I was thinking about other benefits of creativity that I’ve experienced that I’ve researched, like being a good problem solver, being more empathetic to others because you see things in different perspectives, seeing the world through possibilities. So I just want to talk with him about how he came up with those five and what others he sees as being benefits of creativity. And I’d love to know from you, what other benefits do you see of.

Matthew Worwood:
I think, you know, I’d had the opportunity to chat to James a little bit when he was putting this book together. And one of the things that we spoke a lot about was just this sense of purpose and meaning. And I’d referenced this in the episode. But when my grandfather retired as a coal miner, he didn’t know what to do with his life. And a few years ago, I stumbled across an old cassette tape of when he was being interviewed because of his artwork. And in that interview, it was very clear that his work as an amateur painter, an artist, had given him new meaning and purpose in his life. And the idea. James talks a lot about legacy, and I know that you’ve spoken about legacy from a less positive perspective.

Matthew Worwood:
But this idea that his work will continue to endure beyond his lifetime, I think, at least from being his grandson, I feel I’ve got a piece of him and arguably a piece of his creativity, which I think is very special. And so I think purpose, meaning, and work enduring, producing something that endures beyond your lifetime is very special. And I think it’s very relevant to the question that you just asked.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, and I think, Matt, you brought up my feelings about the word legacy. I find that legacy has ego attached to it. And that’s my own view, is that I think it’s attached to it. And I don’t like that we’re going to do such things that are so big and so monumental that we’re going to leave a legacy and people are going to remember us in a hundred years. And I don’t like that. What I liked was in Michael Hatch and Hansen’s episode, and I don’t even remember what season one that was, maybe season three, he talked about being a good ancestor, and I like that framework a lot better. But actually, when I read The Creativity Advantage by James Kaufman, and he talked about legacy, he was talking about it not from an ego perspective, but from a perspective of, I’m holding Play DOH in my hands right now. I’m always holding Play DOH when we do these episodes because it gives me something to play with.

Cyndi Burnett:
Obviously. That’s why it’s called Play DOH. But what I’m thinking about know, someone created this Play DOH. I don’t know who it is who created Play DOH, but someone created it, and that’s their own little legacy. So the way he positioned legacy in his book was much less ego driven than how I’ve seen legacy in the past. So my question really is, where does problem solving fit in? Where does seeing possibilities fit in? So I think I need to have another conversation with him.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah. And I think I probably have always connected to his perspective of legacy a little bit more closer than your perspective of legacy. And I think what it might come down to is legacy might represent what you’ve contributed to the world. And that contribution is actually because you want to have an impact in the world. And it’s about, to your point, being a good ancestor to others. Whereas when your work and what you’re contributing is primarily about serving you and elevating your status and making you feel more important than others because you’ve got a bigger, more gigantic legacy than your next door neighbor, then perhaps that’s when the ego has taken control and we spoke about meaning and purpose. My gut feeling is the meaning of your work is probably, I think, less powerful even to you than when you’re just doing work out of love and a desire to change and benefit others.

Cyndi Burnett:
I completely you know, it’s sort of a yes and and a yes, but yeah.

Matthew Worwood:
And also, guess what? We’re highlighting the fact and this was in Morgan’s episode, by having a discussion, we get to explore different perspectives. This is another wonderful thing. When you actively listen and I’m not going to go off on a tangent, but when you actively listen, you will begin to understand how someone else is interpreting a word, how someone else is interpreting a situation, how someone else is impacted by a problem in a way that you didn’t know. And it’s not always about it being different. It’s just about expanding your knowledge of others who are sharing the same environment to you. I’m really glad, in some ways, my takeaway from this episode, Cindy, is the conversation you brought around active listening?

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, Matt, I think we’ve had an amazing first half of our season seven, and I can’t wait to see what happens in season seven, part two.

Matthew Worwood:
Absolutely. And I’ll tell you what, I really enjoyed the conversation with you, Cindy, and I can’t wait until our next debrief in five episodes time.

Cyndi Burnett:
So Matt and I have some new mugs out. So what we would love for you to do is to go on to your favorite listening podcast platform and write us a review. Send us a screenshot of the review at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com, and we will send you a mug. A feeling. Creativity mug.

Matthew Worwood:
So my name is Dr. Matthew Warwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett. This podcast was produced by Matthew Warwood and Cindy Burnett. The episode was sponsored by Curiosity to create.