Kulvarn Atwal [00:00:00]:
But what I want to do is I want to develop teachers for their career, not to teach what they’re currently being told to teach. To be able to make decisions that impact on every child because we shouldn’t. We should judge ourselves by the child that has achieved the least. Because if I’m a parent of that child, it doesn’t matter to me if everyone else is doing well.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:19]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood: [00:00:22]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Woerwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:24]:
This is the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast.

Matthew Worwood: [00:00:28]:
On this show, we’ll be talking about creativity topics and how they apply to the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:34]:
We’ll be speaking with scholars, educators and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and digging deeper into new and varying perspectives of creativity, or with the.

Matthew Worwood: [00:00:44]:
Goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers and parents with knowledge they can use at home or in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:52]:
So let’s begin. Today we welcome back to the show Dr. Culburn Atwell. Culverin was a very popular guest on our first season of the Fueling Creativity and Education podcast where he spoke about the Thinking School. And today he’s going to talk about the Thinking Teacher, which is also the title of his latest book. Dr. Atwall has been teaching in East London schools for over 20 years and is currently principal of two large primary schools. He has spent his entire career focusing on teacher learning, and his doctoral thesis investigated the factors that impact teacher engagement and professional learning in schools.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:33]:
Welcome back to the show, Culver.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:01:35]:
Thanks. Thanks for having me, Cindy. I’m really looking forward to the discussion.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:39]:
So tell us a little bit about why you decided to write the Thinking Teacher after you wrote the Thinking School.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:01:48]:
Really straightforward, actually. So the Thinking School was written to share the findings of my doctoral research, which looked primarily at how we can create a more expansive learning environment. And the simple premise is that the greatest factor that impacts upon student outcomes is equality of teaching in schools if you take out factors of the home. And so if leaders can focus their energies on promoting really deep, reflective, professional learning experiences, then we create this dynamic learning community, what we call the Thinking School. Now, once I’ve written the Thinking School and it was popular amongst many school leaders, I was asked a question. What do teachers do who want to work in a thinking school but don’t have leaders who promote a thinking school? And I said, well, they can aspire to become leaders of thinking schools in the future, but they said they didn’t want to wait. So what I decided was that rather than focusing on school leaders who often have become leaders in more hierarchical learning environments, which is much more about monitoring, compliance, control. Why don’t I write a book for teachers early on in their careers or experience? It doesn’t matter.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:03:06]:
To enable them to take charge of their own professional learning and create professional learning opportunities for themselves despite the learning environment that they are in. So essentially this is written for the workforce. I don’t know if I’ve mentioned the book. It’s like a call to arms to the workforce to take charge of their own professional learning. In England, currently, 33% of teachers leave by the fifth year of teaching. And that is a tragedy because they come into the profession to make a difference. So we’re not getting the best out of our teachers. And I’ve written the book to give them a toolkit to transform their mindset and improve their practice so they become more confident, they become more reflective, and they’re able to develop themselves so they can withstand some of the pressures of the profession.

Cyndi Burnett [00:03:58]:
This actually reminds me of a conversation we had with a STEAM educator here a few weeks ago, and she was talking about how teachers, often they want to grow, but they feel like there’s nowhere to grow. So what you’re promoting is to have educators take control over their own learning so that they can grow in meaningful ways themselves.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:04:19]:
Absolutely. And the key to that is there’s this research, some research actually, that came out from Chicago, a study in 2016, which Kraft and Papay, if anyone’s interested, which argued that in many education systems, teachers make really strong accelerated progress in their first year and their second year, and that this tails off in their third year. But in the best schools, they continue to improve year after year. So the premise is if you are in an environment in which you are not perhaps getting opportunities to engage in really strong professional learning activities. I’m arguing that if you, if you, if you follow some of the advice in the book is you can take charge of your own professional learning and you can create opportunities for yourselves. And that might be through collaborative peer learning. It might be taking opportunities for coaching, but simple activities like reflection in action while you’re teaching. Reflection upon action.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:05:23]:
Once. Once you’re. Once you’ve finished a lesson. Because I believe I’m a better teacher today than I was yesterday, and I’m a better school leader today than I was yesterday. And I don’t think I’d be in the profession if my professional learning just stagnated in year three. And the greatest resource in our schools is our teachers. You know, I believe that the teacher is more important than the head teacher or the principal. And the reason I’m saying that is the only way I can impact directly on all 700, 800,000 children in a school is through those adults.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:05:57]:
They are the key. So every opportunity I can get for them to engage in reflection, they become more able to make adaptations in the moment. And the key point there is good teachers can impact upon about 60% of the class where you have children, maybe with disadvantage, come from a less literature rich environment. Only the best teachers can impact upon them. So if we’re investing in our staff is the best way to invest in our students. Final point about that, as a school we are an outlier because we pay 60% towards every teacher to do a master’s. Now currently In England, about 2 to 3% of teachers have a Master’s degree. In FINLAND it’s compulsory, 100%.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:06:42]:
And I think sometimes we look at other education systems and think what is the magic ingredient? It’s not magic, just improve the quality of teaching. So this is about them taking charge for themselves, empowering themselves and giving them the confidence to know what they’re doing.

Matthew Worwood: [00:06:56]:
Colvin this is music to my ears. I’ve just been working with a cohort of teachers on something that we’re calling Teacher Innovation Studio and it very much focused on how design thinking principles can really help produce solutions. Perhaps we’re focusing a little bit more on identifying technology, so technological solutions to challenges that exist in the classroom environment. And we quite often talk about this idea of working within the constraints of the environment. But you can be a leader inside that environment. One of the things that I’ve noticed is that when I’m working with teachers that are still got that passion, enthusiasm, energy, they just absorb everything that I’m sharing in the workshop and they’re running with it. But then sometimes you interact with teachers who are deflated, at least at the point in time in which you’re interacting with them. So my question to you is, you’re talking about, you know, a call to arms for all of the teacher profession.

Matthew Worwood: [00:07:48]:
How are you addressing those teachers that are already perhaps looking for the door?

Kulvarn Atwal [00:07:53]:
Yeah, I think this is a primarily, I’m hoping this will impact on teachers as they enter the profession because what you’re talking about technically in workplace learning theories is individual dispositions to learning. So even in the same environment, with the same global influences, with the same institutional influences, for example, in a school, two teachers can choose, have agency to the extent to which they choose to engage in those professional learning activities. Now what influences individual dispositions to learning? It’s two things. It’s your life histories and your work histories. So we know that our life histories mean that some people are naturally more motivated or more resilient, can overcome challenges, and others might be less motivated. The research showed that teachers that responded in my Dr. He said also associated a greater sense of well being and esteem by engaging in these types of professional learning activities. Because often teachers are scared of change and scared of making mistakes because of the implication that if you’ve changed in your practice, somehow what you were doing before was wrong.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:09:08]:
Now that is not, that is not a problem in other industries. Because we’re in other industries, you’re expected to innovate, you’re expected to improve. And I think that is a mentality thing. So, for example, if teachers are looking for the door, is it because of workload? Is it because of lack of support from leadership? Most research in England has shown that most people that leave teaching still remain in the education sector. They might be doing agency work, they might be working in other areas, so they’re not demotivated by the students. So what I would argue is that you can transform your environment. If someone is fixed in their mindset, then they won’t even choose to engage in those professional learning activities. But what you’ve got to demonstrate as a leader is what you value.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:09:56]:
So there’s two aspects of that. As a leader, you’re going to publicly acknowledge people’s effort in terms of their motivation, their attitudes and the relationships they build with their students. But from an individual teacher’s perspective, and I talk about this in the book, is you’ve got to ignore the distractions. And one of the things I talk about in the book is when I first started teaching, I noticed that there were teachers like you’ve just described who did not really care about the kids and their progress. And I thought how inherently unfair that was that your outcomes in school is dependent on which teacher you get. And that leads to inequalities in our education system and inequalities in wider society. So my ambition was to create a school in which every teacher was like you’ve just described, passionate, enthusiastic, motivated, associating effort with success. That was a thinking school.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:10:54]:
The thinking teacher is about if you’re working in an environment where you’re surrounded by people who aren’t positive, aren’t motivated, do not have high expectations. Here is a way in which you can develop practices early on in your career or reestablish practices late on in your career which enables you to have a positive mindset. So the book’s called the Thinking teacher, and I deliberately put how to transform your mindset. Because if your mindset isn’t committed that every child, they can achieve, regardless of their background or their starting point, how are the children ever going to achieve? Because they will internalize the values that the teachers hold of them. So this is to. The first thing is to transform your mindset and then see risks, taking risks as part of your practice, because that is central to creativity and creative thinking. And I’ll talk a little bit about how I view creativity, but what we’re doing is we’re working within a system where educators aren’t trusted. So what do you do when you don’t trust? You don’t let them have autonomy.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:11:50]:
You don’t let them make decisions for themselves. So you make the curriculum so robust and so tight that no one can deviate from it. So it’s almost like. It’s like a. It’s like Fordism when you’re building cars in a factory. If I put these inputs in, at the end will come these children filled with knowledge. But are they able to think creatively? Are they able to work collaboratively? Are they able to demonstrate the skills that are required in our future society? And that this is a real big challenge. But what I want to do is I want to develop teachers for their career, not to teach what they’re currently being told to teach.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:12:25]:
To be able to make decisions that impact on every child, because we shouldn’t. We should judge ourselves by the child that has achieved the least. Because if I’m a parent of that child, it doesn’t matter to me if everyone else is doing well, if my child isn’t well. But what you got to do is we’ve got to take that pressure off teachers. We’ve got to give teachers the opportunity to experiment with their practice, work collaboratively, go in and out of each other’s classrooms. And so there’s lots of activities in the book that I’ve said, despite your learning environment, you can do this or you can do that.

Matthew Worwood: [00:12:56]:
So, Colvin, I want to come back to the pandemic a little bit because I think the pandemic, we’ve spoken about this on the show many times. The pandemic really, I think, showcased the creativity that exists in the teaching profession. And at least within my network, I felt that every teacher I knew, and also to a certain extent, every parent that I knew who was in a position to do this, really felt kind of motivated to get through this period, collectively as a community, making sure that we make progress in educating our students, making sure that they don’t fall too far behind. And I was really hoping that after the pandemic that perhaps that relationship, that connection with creativity, with agency, because there wasn’t actually a script or you wasn’t trained on how to do it. I think agency was a big part of everyone trying to navigate the new technology and engage students at a distance. But my worry is that we kind of come out the pandemic and we’re in danger of kind of falling back into old habits. And I was just wondering, like, as a principal, have you been able to leverage, you know, if you. At least, if you agree with me, have you been able to leverage some of the creativity that came out of the pandemic with individual teachers? Or are you starting to see the fact that we are going back into that rhythm a little bit?

Kulvarn Atwal [00:14:13]:
I think it’s possible to do that a micro level at an individual school level to say, look at, look at how you innovated and developed and adapted and transformed your practice so quickly with that autonomy and agency. And I draw on 1950s Japanese economic models, which was actually fueled by the American economic revolution after the Second World War, which argued that with greater autonomy comes greater creativity. So what they did is they agreed with workers, what the end goal was, and got rid of these line managers and middle leaders who were there to monitor. Because what happens eventually if there’s a culture over emphasis on a culture of monitoring and compliance, teachers stop bringing their brains to work. Now you’re describing what teachers were able to do when they were given that autonomy to use their experience and creativity and collective understanding to meet the needs of their students. I honestly feel that the system has moved back, certainly in England, to actually, if we provide a curriculum that is so detailed and an inspection regimen, which is focusing so much on the delivery of the curriculum, that we’re influencing the inputs and the output is going to be great. I think that. I definitely think that is at the expense of creativity, because what we’re doing is we’re getting children to jump through hoops and pass exams and regurgitate knowledge.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:15:58]:
And what they aren’t able to do is to use that knowledge in creative and critical ways. And I think, you know, I would really prefer to have given a more positive response, but I don’t see that at the moment. What I do see is green shoots of individuals and small groups of people who are pushing to identify examples of curriculum around the world. I think The Germans are doing some work on this. Ontario has done some work on this in terms of having a curriculum in which I believe the curriculum should have as much emphasis on our children’s personal and social and emotional development as well as their academic. And the other thing is that creative and critical thinking and risk taking should be at the center of that too. Final point about students. Students never fail to surprise me because children learn more between the ages of 0 and 3 than they do at any other time in their lives.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:16:58]:
And so they are natural born learners. So it almost as if the first time they begin to see themselves negatively as learners is when they start school and they get feedback and they’re told they’re not doing this right or they’re not doing that right. And that’s, that’s very important because how you see yourselves as a learner is the same for teachers. The purpose of becoming a thinking teacher is straightforward. And the OECD work in 2016 looked, look at, looked at this, they argued that we need to develop confident teachers. And one of the ways to do that is to develop teachers who are willing to innovate. So basically we want creative, however you want to describe them, teachers, practitioners, facilitators, thinkers. Because if they aren’t thinking creatively, how are they going to, how are we going to accept them, expect them to nurture that in their student?

Cyndi Burnett [00:17:52]:
Well, that really builds on my next question, which was, do you think a thinking teacher is a creative teacher and vice versa?

Kulvarn Atwal [00:18:00]:
Yeah, so I do, I do. I thought that question might be coming. And I do talk about that in the book and I talk about what I mean by creativity. And I think that sometimes in the Western world we have a skewed model of creativity because we consider it to be an innate skill that some human beings have. So we use that. I’m not very creative, you hear people say. And it’s like, well, you know, it’s not part of your genetics. It’s creativity is learned.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:18:28]:
And what I tried to talk about with our team and the thinking teacher is a way of looking at it is creativity comes through successive failures that by that, by working on something and looking at divergent ways of thinking and experimenting with it and making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, we become creative in our thinking. And at the thinking teacher level, it’s also about divergent thinking. So creativity is also about generating ideas. So, you know, sometimes I might come up with an idea that people think is ridiculous, but it’s only by generating ideas that you reject because they’re ridiculous. That you can come. You are more likely. The more ideas you generate, the more likely you are to arrive at a novel solution, which I think which I see as creative and divergent thinking. But if the curriculum is just delivered to a child, they are not engaged in that because they see learning as learning facts rather than producing something, making something, creating something.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:19:34]:
So absolutely, 100%, and not just because I’m on this podcast. Yes, the thinking teacher is encouraged to learn from the mistakes, make successive failures. And so the move I would describe, as we consider in this country, Isaac Newton discovered gravity because an apple fell on his head. Or we have this picture of creativity as a light bulb moment. I think that’s really skewed because he was probably working on that theory for many, many years. Apple didn’t fall on his head and he discovered it. And I think, and I use the example of we have an English designer, inventor who, Dyson, James Dyson, who invented the specific type of vacuum cleaner. And he’s argued that that was his 2456 prototype.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:20:31]:
So by going through that many prototypes, he comes to this creative model and this creative product. And I also think that we have to think about pupil motivation and pupil engagement. And there is a lot of people in this country who are not interested in, particularly in older students, 14, 15. They think, why should they have a voice? Why should they have to enjoy the learning? I’m the expert, I’m the teacher. They should just sit there and listen. And I’m like, I couldn’t do that, and adults couldn’t do that. So why are we expecting our students to do that? So creativity is about, well, being for our teachers, motivation, engagement, being passionate, and then developing those same skills in the students that they are teaching, rather than students who are bored or not engaged in their learning.

Cyndi Burnett [00:21:19]:
So, Culverin, so many of our guests have talked about agency, and you’re talking about agency with students as well as teachers. And I’m wondering if we circle back to teachers having this professional learning, do they get to choose the kind of professional learning that they have? That’s my first question. And my second question is, does that also give students the opportunity to learn in different ways as well?

Kulvarn Atwal [00:21:47]:
So you have to have an element of teacher choice in their professional learning, because otherwise they’re not driving their learning. Now, some of the activities I talk about are generic activities. So I talk about peer learning, I talk about lesson study, I talk about action research. Now, I do not determine the individual topic that the teachers engage in, but what I might do is provide an Overview. So one of the things we looked at over a term was creativity and imagination. Let’s look at models of creativity and imagination, let’s look at different examples of what’s going on around the world. But if you’re working with 4 year olds and you’ve got a specific cohort, you need to have some agency over the area of practice that you are investigating through the lens of creativity and imagination. Now if I’ve, if I’m part of the agency over what I decide to learn about, I’m going to be more invested.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:22:48]:
All right, so my job as a principal then is to give them the tools and the support and the time out of class or the, or the COVID in their class to support them, to enable them to investigate that research question. So the problem often with schools is the principal is so directive over what that professional learning is. And the challenge for many teachers is if we’re becoming a profession in which teachers are being given less agency or autonomy and the reason they’re doing that is because it’s believed that they’re not trusted to make decisions for themselves, we are going to impact upon our students because we’re not going to produce teachers who are capable of adapting the teaching, of making decisions in the moment and that will impact significantly on students motivation and engagement. And so this is crucial because what I’m arguing for these teachers is if it’s, and I don’t say it in quite those words, but find a school that’s right for you, not, you know, if you’re not being given the opportunity to develop, you can find an environment in which you are given the opportunity to develop. Last time I spoke to you, you know, we were talking about potentially scripts of teaching that is disempowering. I’ve got no problem with providing lesson resources, but would we be expected to learn as adults from a script? No. We engage in dialogue, don’t we? We engage in discussion, we share ideas. That’s no different for four year olds.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:24:25]:
This thing that four year olds learn somehow in a different way. So I would say the best learning currently in England takes place for four year olds because they’re learning through creativity and they’re learning through play. As soon as they hit five in year one, they’re expected to be at desks and tables. So one of the things I laugh about is this. We’ve got this promotion of teacher at the front, delivering children sat in silence in rows listening. Now what other industry could we say is being, is working in exactly the same way as it did during The Victorian era, Honestly, it’s like, are we seriously thinking that all these years of evidence suggests this is the best way to enable children, natural born learners, to engage in learning? And so part of me writing a thinking teacher is, for example, I’ve got three kids of my own and I know that education and the expectations on schools changes, but certain things don’t change, which is the importance of the teacher. The teacher is crucial on the front line in terms of making decisions in the moment and after the moment to review the impact of their teaching on those students. And if I can empower a reflective teacher who’s discovering for themselves, that is what I want them to do for the children.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:25:50]:
So the reason I’m saying that is if someone tells you what I don’t know Pythagoras Theorem is, and you’ve learned it by rote, you can use it. But if someone tells you why Pythagoras Theorem works and you’ve discovered that for yourself and you can see it and you picture it, you are then making patterns in your learning. So if my teachers are discovering that certain strategies work because they’ve experimented it and trialed it with their classroom, that becomes embedded, part of their practice. It’s powerful. If they’re doing something because I’ve told them to do it and I’m monitoring the hell out of them for doing it, then what you’ve got is a completely different situation. You’ve got trained robots. Whereas I want powerful, reflective, thinking teachers. And I know, because you know one thing, the school I’m sitting in right now has been awarded the Mayor of London’s Schools for Success award for five years in a row.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:26:39]:
That means the progress the lowest prior retainers in this school make has been consistently in the top 6% of schools. I think there’s probably a handful of schools in the whole of London 2000 that can say they’ve achieved that award five times. So the argument that only the best teachers can impact upon every child, Good. You know, there will always be some children who will sit and listen regardless who’s standing up in front of them. But those children that need more, and we’re talking about this, is about justice and equality. You know, the other argument I have, and I’ve been talking about this a lot, is if, and this, I particularly look at America with this as well. If we spent more money on educating in the early years, our young children, we would be able to spend less money on the prison system because a lot of the people in the prisons haven’t had the education they need haven’t been able to articulate themselves, do not have the oracy skills. And so this is very important to me, firstly because too many teachers leave and I’ve actually sat.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:27:46]:
You know, I’ve recently been getting quite a lot of followers in America and they are there, maybe that, maybe it’s just the ones I get, but they’re a pretty disgruntled bunch. They feel that their autonomy has already been eroded. They feel that administrators are not supportive. And, you know, this is just obviously not a broad research viewpoint, but I feel that we definitely need to look at actually what, what made America so great is all these creative thinkers, you know, all people that can have come to the country, like many people have come to this country to make a difference for the education. And I think we’re doing a disservice to our teachers by not empowering them to make decisions on the front line. And if we can achieve that at this school with very many teachers here, we’re told they weren’t good enough. We work with teachers who maybe were willing, were going to leave the profession and come to us. If you give them the right environment, you give them the time and space.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:28:55]:
And one thing I talk about in this book a lot is the reason you need to be a thinking teacher is because it’s actually a very complex profession. And I’m not saying working in Walmart or, you know, working on a building site isn’t, isn’t, isn’t difficult and challenging, but it’s not as complex because it’s, it’s more straightforward to deliver the role. Whereas working with 30 children. You made the point earlier that I will work, I will meet a child, and I met a child last week like I’ve never met before. And that happens all the time. Children are unique and so one size does not fit all. And that’s why you’re not, you’re only going to go so far in your education system. If you’re going to be controlling teachers and monitoring teachers, they will stop bringing their brains to work and they will just comply.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:29:51]:
That isn’t what our students need. They need creative thinking teachers and leaders who can foster the conditions in the school that encourage that.

Matthew Worwood: [00:30:03]:
So, Carvan, you’ve been on the show before, we’ve asked you this question before about the three tips, and we’re going to challenge you to come up with three different tips. And guess what? Before we publish this, we’re going to go back and check and make sure you’re not repeating previous tip. All right?

Kulvarn Atwal [00:30:17]:
Well, I won’t even remember, so I’ll.

Matthew Worwood: [00:30:20]:
Make it easier for you. What’s your three tips to promote creativity in teachers?

Kulvarn Atwal [00:30:26]:
All right, that’s probably even easier. Three tips to promote creativity in teachers is look outside your classroom. So get into as many other people’s classrooms, read as many different things as you possibly can, go and view every possible aspect you can. Number two, take as many risks with your practice as you can. Trial as many different things as you can. And the reason I say that the principle is what’s the worst thing that can happen? You lose a child. Right. And that isn’t going to happen very often.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:30:58]:
You can do innovation and risk taking in your classroom in a safe way. And the third one is don’t be afraid of falling over. Don’t be afraid of getting things wrong. Don’t be afraid of making mistakes. Don’t be afraid of teaching lessons that don’t work. Because the beauty of teaching is they’ll be back next day, they’ll be back next week, and you’re given another opportunity. And be yourself with your students. Share.

Kulvarn Atwal [00:31:21]:
Tell them what you’re doing and tell them why you think it’s creative. You’ll enjoy your job more, you’ll be more motivated, and you’ll be able to stay in the profession a lot longer. And your children will really, your students will really appreciate it.

Cyndi Burnett [00:31:34]:
Well, Culvern, thank you so much for coming back on the show and we really appreciate your insights and we love learning new things from you. So if you like this episode, we hope that you will share it with a friend or colleague. You can also find Colvarn on Twitter @the thinkingschool and you can also search his name, Culver natwall. You can also follow Matt and I on Twitter and we’ll have Twitter conversations about the thinking teacher.

Matthew Worwood: [00:31:59]:
My name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:32:01]:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by Crete and Education in partnership with warwoodclassroom.com.