Matthew Worwood: Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Worwood,

Cyndi Burnett: and my name is Dr. Cyndi Burnett.

Matthew Worwood: This is the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast.

Cyndi Burnett: On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the fields of education.

Matthew Worwood: We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning. So let’s begin.

Matthew Worwood: Hello and welcome to a special episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast because we are celebrating five years of our show.

Cyndi Burnett: Yes. So five years of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast, and we have had over 130 guests as you can see from our big number five, that Joanne Fernando, who is our. Podcast professional assistant. She created this for us, and we were so excited to have this built because it really shows the diversity of thought and the conversations that we’ve had, the rich conversations we’ve had over the last five years.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt

Matthew Worwood: it has and, , for those of you that listening to the show and you can’t see this episode, Cyndi , with Joanne taking the lead, but it was your idea. Cyndi went and got this. Big, huge five created, and it’s got pictures of all of the guests. You were saying 130 of them.

Matthew Worwood: And to your point, when we first started the show, we were really committed. To making sure we’ve got a lot of diverse thought from all of the people that we’re interviewing that’s made up of practitioners, lots of educators, and.

Matthew Worwood: Lots of researchers that not only specialize in the field of creativity, but also specialize in the research of creativity within teaching and learning environments.

Cyndi Burnett: Yes, and I think we’ve had great success, particularly with our emerging scholars, which I don’t think when we went into the podcast five years ago, that would be like one of our core target audiences.

Cyndi Burnett: But I’ve had so many early researchers reach out that say, I love your episodes. It’s teaching me so much about the field of creativity.

Matthew Worwood: And you know what, if you think about it though, retrospectively it makes sense because. We do talk about what we currently know about creativity, but it’s ultimately a podcast where we are sharing our ideas as well.

Matthew Worwood: Mm-hmm. And so that often facilitates, you know, what is next? And, Hey, do we know this? And do we know that? And we don’t always know. The answers to some of those questions, and of course, emerging scholars who are, on a journey to answer some of those questions through their research.

Matthew Worwood: It kind of makes sense. I do think it’s good content for, scholars and practitioners that are trying to look at, at. What comes next?. We did say that for this show we would kind of share one story about the podcast over the last five years that we thought people wouldn’t know about. So what’s your one story?

Cyndi Burnett: Okay. Matt, do you remember back in season one we used to script all of our episodes and we would have all the questions and it would say, Cyndi’s going to ask this.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt is going to follow up with this. If they say this, then we will say that. And it was very scripted and we were interviewing Dr. Ron Beghetto, who is a very big research in the field of creativity and education. I was a little bit nervous interviewing Ron because he’s so relaxed. He also had his own podcast at the time.

Cyndi Burnett: Mm-hmm. And so I asked him about his definition of creativity. I know a lot, I’ve talked a lot, I present a lot on definitions of creativity. So this was like, easy to do. However, he turned it back to me and all of a sudden we went off script. And he said, so how do you define creativity, Cyndi?

Cyndi Burnett: And I was like I now I have written research papers on definitions of creativity. Done, literally 50 presentations on definitions of creativity. But I couldn’t get anything out because it went off script. And I just remember feeling paralyzed. And so I think at that point, he really pushed us, he did, to go beyond script.

Cyndi Burnett: So I think what we do now in our process is we generate a list of questions based on our dive into the person that we’re interviewing. And then we just start with the first question and then see where the conversation goes without feeling like we need to hit upon certain point.

Matthew Worwood: Yeah.

Matthew Worwood: And I think that’s been a big change of the show. And it was around, I think it was maybe Ron was about the fifth or sixth person we interviewed on the show. , Definitely the first research scholar of that profile that we brought onto the show. So we were naturally a little bit nervous. I remember he had said he wanted more of a conversation as well.

Matthew Worwood: And that’s something that has evolved. Even with this episode right now, we haven’t scripted it, right? Mm-hmm. , And so, you probably have to develop some confidence to do that. But I do remember you freezing a little bit, and I remember afterwards you were like, oh my God, I completely freeze.

Matthew Worwood: To the extent you couldn’t even no. Define what creativity is. So , that is a funny story. And I, and I know you quite often share that story a little bit.

Cyndi Burnett: So what’s your story?

Matthew Worwood: Before I share that story, I should say this is the second take we, we’ve had of shooting this episode because we’ve been bringing video more in just, , it’s part of evolving.

Matthew Worwood: We started off just producing one show every two weeks or every month. You get the production down, then you’re doing once a week, then you’re in a great scenario where you can like shoot in bulk. So during the busy times of the year you’ve got all of these episodes in advance. So we’ve got some really good systems in place, but the video piece is still something that we’re grappling with.

Matthew Worwood: It’s an extra layer. So I will say that you should know , that sometimes we can, second time around you’re just a bit agitated. Mm-hmm. So I’m feeling those feelings, facing those feelings that this is the second time that we’ve recorded this with all of the challenges that we had about 20 minutes ago.

Matthew Worwood: But my thing that I keep coming back to, and it’s pretty similar, is that yes, we were scripted and I would record because there was audio issues I would record in my clothes closet. So I would kinda have to put the computer up. And I think for the first one to two seasons, all of the episodes were in there, but I still had audio issues.

Matthew Worwood: Mm-hmm. And I also, because I can go on tangents, I can overtalk, I became really self-conscious about how difficult it was for me to ask a question really easily. And I think I’ve got better at it, but I still struggle with it. So I would sometimes record the questions of, you know, we’d re-record it, then I’d go back and rerecord the questions.

Matthew Worwood: In all of our first couple of seasons and edit them back in. And that was a nightmare. Can you imagine that you’re listening to the episode and then you’re trying to say the question? It was a pain.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt, I’m glad that you moved out of your wardrobe.

Matthew Worwood: Yep.

Cyndi Burnett: And I think it’s just making me remember just recently, so now Matt’s downstairs working

Cyndi Burnett: in your basement, you have a finished basement, right? I haven’t finished basement and we’re on an episode and it’s video recorded and we have a guest on the show and I don’t remember exactly who it was, but Matt,

Matthew Worwood: he’s my middle son.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt has three boys. If you know anything about Matt, he’s got three boys and adores his boys and they’re very rambunctious as boys are.

Cyndi Burnett: Yeah. Yeah. And in the background there’s something going on and I could see Matt don’t do that. Don’t do that. And then all of a sudden he thought he was off mic. It was like, watch out.

Matthew Worwood: They were playing. What was happening is I was having issues with my internet buffering and they were off for a snow day, I think or something, or maybe it was a weekend shoot.

Matthew Worwood: And, yeah, they suddenly, I saw my internet drop out. I thought my internet had gone, I thought I’d cut out and I think it was because he was playing a video game. And I said, no, no, don’t, don’t, don’t turn off. And yes, they heard me on the recording, but that’s what’s great about not recording these lives.

Matthew Worwood: And being able to edit those. Yeah. We certainly have got some bloopers that we don’t share Oh. And we won’t be talking about. But it’s been an amazing five years.

Cyndi Burnett: It really has. Yeah. And we have had a lot of laughs and many moments of frustration. And you mentioned Face the Feelings, which is a chapter in our upcoming book.

Cyndi Burnett: Mm-hmm. And, the, the feelings that come with the creative process and they’re joyful and they’re fun and exuberant and also. Challenging and ambiguous and frustrating. And you know those moments where you’re just like, oh, I just wanna not do this at this moment, but you keep persisting through and that’s really where the joy comes from.

Cyndi Burnett: So it has been all of those feelings in such an amazing way. And as I reflect back on like how much. We have both grown, I think. Mm-hmm. Professionally personally as the way in the way we parent, we talk about how we take what we’ve learned in, into our own roles as parents and as educators and as researchers and as practitioners and having, Matt and I have a lot of back and forth and I think, people have commented , on our energy together, and I think it’s because we have such a strong friendship that, we know we can push back and.

Cyndi Burnett: And that’s okay. Mm-hmm. Like I know, like I can say things to him as they are, and he says things to me as they are, and we’re okay with that. Mm-hmm. And we worked through it, and we have great, great debates around things. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That. That we don’t agree on, and then we hash it out and then we start to say, okay, well I can see how you like it this way, or I like it this way.

Cyndi Burnett: Mm-hmm. And I think we always work to compromise and, we also have different ideas and perspectives of how we wanna run things. But I think we also respect the fact that , there’s certain things that I’m like, I’m not budging on this. And you’re like, okay, let’s do it that way. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Cyndi Burnett: And even just yesterday, we got the list for all the editorial pieces for the upcoming book. , And there were certain things he’s like, we’re not doing that. We’re doing this. And I’m like, okay, well I’m okay with that, but we need to do this. So I think we also compromise really well today. We

Matthew Worwood: do. , Even the book cover, right?

Matthew Worwood: So, I will say, we’re talking about the book a little bit. That’s been a great thing from the show is not only is. Been a really fun journey, learning how to create content, produce a podcast. Now we’re wrestling with video and we hope to get better and better at, at turning this into a video podcast.

Matthew Worwood: But it’s also been a journey of scholarship as well as all of these people that we’ve interviewed., We said this, how many people have had the opportunity to engage educators and teachers about how they see creativity manifesting in the classroom, strategies that they’ve deployed to promote creativity in the classroom, while also having the ability.

Matthew Worwood: To go and engage with all these incredible scholars and researchers about what they found through their empirical studies of creativity. And we’ve been able to bring all of that into to this book. It’s been a journey of scholarship. And that book started also at presentations, at conferences as well.

Matthew Worwood: So it’s been , a journey where we’ve developed this wonderful friendship. It’s been a journey where we’ve got better at creating content. We still got a long way to go. We still. I think see it as b plus. Mm-hmm. But we’re in that pursuit of trying to go beyond that and now we have to have the book to show from it.

Matthew Worwood: Mm. So thank you so much for these five years. Yep. Thank you for listening to us.

Cyndi Burnett: We do this podcast, I think, in a place of love, of the field of creativity and education. Yeah. And , I don’t think we ever went into it thinking, oh, we’re going to make a lot of money, or what we really wanted was we just wanted to have influence and to have

Matthew Worwood: these conversations and spread Yeah.

Matthew Worwood: And spread creativity to, to let it, to let, to basically share all these wonderful ideas. And, and I keep saying it came from the pandemic ’cause you could see the incredible creativity that was happening from the teachers. We had to tell that story, but there’s amazing teachers doing amazing things to cultivate and promote creativity in the classroom.

Matthew Worwood: And so we wanted to get it out there. But, to your point, it’s something we are really passionate about. And so we’re creating content about something we care a lot about.

Cyndi Burnett: Yeah. And I think one of the questions I often get is, when people ask me what I do, they say, are there other people that do things like this?

Cyndi Burnett: And I’m like, oh yes, there are. And I remember when Matt and I started, Matt was like, we’re gonna run outta people to interview. And I said, I don’t know. There’s a lot of people doing amazing things out there. And as we know, we’ve interviewed a lot of incredible scholars mm-hmm. And teachers and practitioners.

Cyndi Burnett: But there’s still a lot more that we wanna do, and , we’re hoping that we will have a one zero that we will hit

Matthew Worwood: 10.

Cyndi Burnett: 10 years.

Matthew Worwood: Yeah.

Cyndi Burnett: Because I don’t think we ever anticipated getting to this point. I mean, we never really thought that far into the future. It was always like, and I would always say to Matt at the start of every season.

Cyndi Burnett: Do you wanna move forward with another season? It was never like, we’re going to do this and we have to do this. It was like, is this something that’s still enriching us and it having benefit to our community? And, that’s really where the heart of our progression has been.

Matthew Worwood: It has and also getting more comfortable, you know?

Matthew Worwood: Yeah. Like getting comfortable, making mistakes on the show, getting comfortable going to video. Right. . I’ll be honest, I haven’t done my hair today and , all these little things, and I’m just like, whatever, , but getting comfortable with that, that’s something that, , both you and I, that’s a challenge for us.

Matthew Worwood: It’s, and still is a challenge, like it’s, we’re not comfortable with this and we need to get better on, on social media, but we’re not comfortable with that. Right. And I hate social media, so I’m also dealing with some ethical, moral challenges

Cyndi Burnett: right.

Cyndi Burnett: With that as well. And some of it is just about how do we communicate our ideas and mm-hmm. How do we get this out in a way that’s authentic to who we are as researchers, practitioners and educators, and in a way that will resonate with other people. So for those of you who have been. Watching and listening for the last five years.

Cyndi Burnett: Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Cyndi Burnett: So we’ve got some questions from our audience that we’re gonna ask. I’m gonna start with one from Jason Blair. And Jason Blair is on our list of people we interviewed. He’s an art educator. If you didn’t listen to Jason Blair’s episode, it’s really fun.

Cyndi Burnett: All right. Are you ready? Yep. Something I’ve been wondering lately and not very articulate about yet is this, with the rise of AI and the efficiency and perfection that come with it, will a new form or pathway of creativity emerge that is more human centered? So, if AI driven creativity is abundant, flawless, pattern based and efficient will a more human centered creativity that is more scarce and perfect and rooted in memory, trauma, and lived experience, become a thing.

Cyndi Burnett: What do you think?

Matthew Worwood: Yeah, I think this is probably a question we’re all asking in one way or another. And I would say that probably the question is, will a new form of creativity emerge? There will be new forms of creativity with the relationship between human creativity , and what you can accomplish with AI as a tool.

Matthew Worwood: So new outcomes. But I think the idea of us. Expressing our creativity in a very authentic way is not necessarily gonna be new. The question is, will we start wanting more of it? Mm. And I certainly think we already are. Just, the last couple of years it’s really difficult when you have 30 students in your class and you go and get, it’s an open question. You end up with 15, 16 papers that pretty much identical. Sometimes it’s more than that and that authenticity and when students are typing with uppercase letters and you’re seeing the run on sentences ’cause they, they really wanna express something.

Matthew Worwood: I miss that already. And I had a class this semester where students were. Committed because of the way the class is structured, we’ve gotta use AI toward the end to get it published ready. But it’s about them finding their voices, them expressing their ideas, and we have 19 short papers submitted, 19 completely different takes on a reading, and all expressed in lots of different ways.

Matthew Worwood: And I thanked them because I said I really, really enjoyed. Reading your papers. And there’s something that’s referred to as the hands made effect, which is that there are already a market where we crave things that are made by hand. Mm. You know, whether it’s the gloves, the whatever it is, the scarf, the wool scarf that’s been handmade.

Matthew Worwood: You see the stitch in the mistakes in it. So I think it’s already there, but yes, I believe we’re gonna want more of that. Mm. And , the balance is gonna be. That productivity and getting it out, because there’s times where we do need to get it out and maybe it’s not so much about creativity. And then there’s gonna be the times where there’s an opportunity for us to express our authentic self there and our authentic self is gonna be what people want.

Matthew Worwood: And so , I think we’re gonna want more of it. Whether or not that’s new or not is maybe a different discussion. What about you?

Cyndi Burnett: So I think for myself, I really think about it in terms of being a creator and as a creator, I’ve always wanted things to be perfect. When I’ve written books I work and work and work and work, and I go back and I.

Cyndi Burnett: I do lots of iterations until something is perfect. But now that I’m seeing things come out with AI and they seem like overly perfect, and I think LinkedIn is a really good example because I love writing LinkedIn posts. Like if I had time I would write a LinkedIn post every day. ’cause I, I love just sharing my thoughts around things and even around the podcast, like when we first started and AI first started, I’m like, oh, this is a great way I can synthesize what I’ve learned and put it on LinkedIn.

Cyndi Burnett: And I’m like, oh, it’s so. It’s just so perfectly written, and that’s not me. That doesn’t reflect me. So now, I work in collaboration, but I do it in a way that is organic to me and that I share a lot of my stuff and then I say, , bring up some good points. What, is there anything that’s missing?

Cyndi Burnett: And I use it to help refine my thinking instead of do my thinking. And we’ve been having this conversation a lot over the last few days, using it for augmentation, but not for automation.

Cyndi Burnett: So I do think there will be a surge of creativity, like the handmade stuff that people love because they’re gonna be sick of just seeing everything that’s so AI created. Mm-hmm. Now the other question from that of course is will we be able to augment ai. To really reflect our humanness and our authenticity as time moves on.

Cyndi Burnett: What do you think?

Matthew Worwood: I’m sure we will be able to, I think a strong point of it is its capacity to evaluate data, to spot patterns. And so it, it makes sense that the more it you give of yourself to ai and of course they, that creates ethical questions. Mm-hmm.

Matthew Worwood: Privacy questions. If we were to follow the same trend as social media, the more we give our data over to these platforms, the more they’re probably gonna be able to identify these what we think, or unique quirks about us, but actually unique quirks that tend to happen often enough that they become a pattern and therefore AI can replicate those.

Matthew Worwood: So I think there’s probably some possibility that can be done. And therefore, possibly we could have the capacity to create at least an episode between you and I. With ai, without us actually filming in it, we would have to decide would we do it? You know what? What’s our ethical position?

Matthew Worwood: Do we really want to do that? Do we wanna present an episode? Do we share with people, it’s not us. We used AI for it. How would the people respond to that, our listeners? And then the second point, of course, is that I think that would be a challenge to do it with guests. ’cause as we just referenced at the beginning of the show, we come off script so much now.

Matthew Worwood: Right. If you do it by ai, it becomes scripted. And as you just said, you lose all of that authenticity and going down a road that you never thought you would go down.

Cyndi Burnett: Yes.

Matthew Worwood: But you did because you responded in the moment based on the connection you made on that Tuesday that you might not have made on the Wednesday.

Cyndi Burnett: And it’s like, do you succumb to the trend of using ai? Mm-hmm. That’s a good way, right way of seeing it.

Cyndi Burnett: And here’s our next question. Are you ready? This is from Marcy Klein, another one of our guests who is a pediatrician and runs three Ducks Designs, and she asked, as AI and personalization tools continue to grow, how do you see the role of creativity and human skills evolving in classrooms and what experiences will be essential to preserve so students don’t lose the human collaborative and hands-on aspects of learning?

Matthew Worwood: To me, I like to think a lot of it’s already happening. Mm-hmm. First, I think at the, in the K through 12, I think it would look different across the grades. Number one. , I like to think there’s a little less use of AI during the early Yes. Early years. We’re making sure that,, we’ve had lots of conversations about this, but we are cultivating and developing the creative thinking skills that we talk so much about.

Matthew Worwood: Mm-hmm. On, on the show as well as the critical thinking skills. But those projects. Where students identify problems within their community that they care about problems that connect their talents and interests, or rather, that can utilize their talents and interests. And then they go on a journey to solve that problem.

Matthew Worwood: And they’re discovering things along the way about that problem. And they may be discovering some of those things using AI tools. They may be evaluating data that they’ve gathered from AI tools. They may also. Be using AI tools to assist in the creation of what they want to create, but remember what they wanna create is coming from that.

Matthew Worwood: Problem finding process. That’s their motivation. They’ve created the vision of what they want, and then they’re validating, does this actually work? So they hopefully have got an opportunity to implement it. I mean, it could be that we can create some really cool things now that actually can be used in the school.

Matthew Worwood: So now it opens up the door that maybe we can spend a little bit more time on idea validation does this actually solve the problem that you thought? But I think so long as we do all of that. Mm. And we do see AI as the tools to your point that we are being used maybe to automate some things, but mostly it’s about augmenting things along the way.

Matthew Worwood: So long as we’re in the driver’s seat, it’s all about developing those 21st century skills, the things that we already talk so much about. Yeah. We’ve been talking so much about what I just described still is a project based learning environment where it’s about developing 21st century skills.

Matthew Worwood: Creativity is one of those skills as are so many other skills that we care about.

Cyndi Burnett: I agree with you, Matt, on so much of that, and I think the project based learning is such a critical component, especially when we start to talk about transformational creativity, which we talk about in the book around the future creative and really thinking about how do we get students to think about their communities and make their communities better.

Cyndi Burnett: For me, so much of this comes down to creativity. Really moving toward the forefront because , there’s always priorities. We talked recently with a guest about, where do we prioritize our time and our money and our resources, and I think as we move forward in education and.

Cyndi Burnett: We look at jobs that are being taken over by technology in general, right? That we have to develop these skills. And I look at creativity as the ability to navigate change. So if we look at, if we’re teaching our students how to be creative, how to solve complex problems, how to keep open, see things from different perspectives, be original in their thinking.

Cyndi Burnett: And we’re also looking at how do we find our humanness, which we were just talking about. Mm-hmm. The other question mm-hmm. Then really all of that is about managing the change that’s coming at them. So when we look toward our own children mm-hmm. And you have three boys and I have a son and a daughter.

Cyndi Burnett: What I’m looking at for them is, how can I help them manage the change that’s coming? Because we don’t really know what kind of jobs we’re planning for, and. Being creative and thinking creatively helps us to manage that change. And so that, along with critical thinking, I think those two components are just going to become essential.

Cyndi Burnett: And I think we’re gonna be getting more phone calls saying, how do we actually do this? Because right now I think that is a big missing piece , that schools need to be more deliberate about.

Matthew Worwood: Oh, I totally agree. I think in the next two to three years, people are gonna say, wait, you know what?

Matthew Worwood: We should be. Definitely now investing more. And I think the personalization piece of that question was important. Mm. Is that, yes, outside of that, there’s probably gonna be a lot more personalized instruction through ai. And I think again, that’s why it’s going to matter more around these types of authentic project-based learning moments or experiences, but they are involving multiple people.

Matthew Worwood: There’s probably moments when you want an individual student engaging in this project and going through everything I just described and collaborating with ai. But we’ve also gotta make sure that we’re working collaboratively together. And to be honest with you, that’s a choice.

Matthew Worwood: It might be that we can say, but do we have to? No. That’s a choice. We’ve learned enough about what we’ve seen with social media and some of the challenges that exist in how people interact with each other and talk to each other. So we need to choose. As educators to make sure that our students remain connected and working collaboratively on projects.

Matthew Worwood: Yes. Even if you could do an individual project. No, let’s keep those group projects going.

Cyndi Burnett: Yep.

Matthew Worwood: What’s another question?

Cyndi Burnett: All right, here’s your final question. Perfect. Are you ready?

Matthew Worwood: Yes.

Cyndi Burnett: This is a fun one. This is from Paula in Invia, and her question is, where would your dream episode take place?

Matthew Worwood: You know what?

Matthew Worwood: I could give lots of answers. We are getting pressed for time. I’m gonna stay on top of Mount Aetna. It’s one of my favorite places in the world. And you asked me way back when we were doing the presentation, what do I geek out about? And I said, planes and airplanes.

Matthew Worwood: The other thing I geek out about is volcanoes. Hmm. And Mount Aetna is just incredible , when it comes to stimulating curiosity or wonder, it is just incredible. So every time you go on there, and I say every time I’ve had the opportunity to go there a few times, I’m going back there this summer safely.

Matthew Worwood: I would love to see it erupt and watching what my middle son a couple of years ago there was like, oh my God, rip up the clouds. Can I just, there’s this great video of him. He just, the curiosity and wonder that was captured in that moment, I was so inspired. And so from a creativity perspective, when it comes to curiosity I would love to shoot it on there.

Matthew Worwood: What about you?

Cyndi Burnett: I have a much different perspective. Although I think it would be fun to be, on a volcano, my volcano might be in Hawaii. Okay. But I do like that. But my dream episode would be after a policy meeting that says that creativity

Cyndi Burnett: should be a priority in schools. Mm. That we’re in a policy meeting in let’s say Washington, dc We’ve

Matthew Worwood: been invited,

Cyndi Burnett: we’ve been invited to a policy meeting in Washington DC and they’re talking about, so how do we actually do it? And we say, let us tell you about our many guests that we’ve talked to and what we’ve learned.

Cyndi Burnett: And then after we leave that meeting, they say, great, let’s make this a proclamation across the country. And then other countries are like, we need to do what? The United States is doing to bring creativity into the classroom. But initially, that first dream episode would be after a policy has been made that we could influence, that would bring creativity into the classroom.

Matthew Worwood: That’s a wonderful mission in some ways, you know, we, we keep thinking about dreaming big, and that’s a really big mission., I love that. And maybe it can happen, and, hopefully it happens before we get to the. The one zero to the zero. The one zero, yeah.

Matthew Worwood: And listen I’m more than good when it comes to working with you, celebrating these five years, thank you for that. Thank you to everyone that’s been listening. We really appreciate the emails. We know that we’ve got a really like loyal following of people listening to the podcast and that.

Matthew Worwood: That kind of keeps us going. If we didn’t have people listening, we probably

Cyndi Burnett: would.

Matthew Worwood: It

Cyndi Burnett: didn’t, no, we, we would probably be like, this is fun set. We don’t like it

Matthew Worwood: that much.

Cyndi Burnett: Yeah,

Matthew Worwood: we don’t like, and we’re not too, yeah. We don’t like it that much. So,

Cyndi Burnett: yeah.

Matthew Worwood: Thank you so much. , If you haven’t already, please, check us out on YouTube, subscribe.

Matthew Worwood: We we are on that journey.

Matthew Worwood: And remember, if you want to be a guest over the next five years, reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. Check out our last five years of episodes. All of our five years of episodes are on our website. Fueling creativity podcast.com and we’ve organized them into collections.

Matthew Worwood: Um, We’re gonna have to wrap it up. Alright, so my name is Dr. Cyndi Burnett and my name is Dr. Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett: This episode was produced by Cyndi Burnett and Matthew War. Our podcast assistant is Anne Fernando, and our editor is she Ahmed.