Matthew Worwood: What if creativity and education isn’t about having more resources, but seeing what’s already possible? In this episode, we will unpack the idea of designing your own Wonder Museum, explore the relationship between engagement and creativity. Can you really have one without the other and challenge the assumption that funding is the biggest barrier in education when it comes to creativity.

Matthew Worwood: If you’re interested in any of these things, then join us for our third debrief of season 12. Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Worwood

Cyndi Burnett: and my name is Dr. Cyndi Burnett.

Matthew Worwood: This is the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast.

Cyndi Burnett: On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the fields of education.

Matthew Worwood: We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood: So let’s begin. Hello and welcome to our third debrief episode of season 12 of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast. I was just saying to Cyndi just before we hit record, I’ve really enjoyed. This season so far, Cyndi, I feel like we’ve we keep referencing it, but it’s been some really interesting topics.

Cyndi Burnett: I think what’s most interesting, Matt, is that in the beginning of doing this podcast back in season one, you’re like, I think we’re gonna run out of interesting guests. Like we’re gonna run out of topics. And clearly we have not run out of topics because there are lots of things that we still haven’t discussed and we’re looking for these special guests.

Cyndi Burnett: And so if you are listening and you think you haven’t talked about my area of expertise. With regard to creativity and education, we’d love to hear from you. So please reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. And before you do that though, do check out our website, fueling creativity podcast.com and select collections.

Matthew Worwood: ’cause it might be that we have covered one of your episodes. All right, so it’s a debrief episode, as everyone listening probably knows. This is where we debrief our past three episodes or three guests that we’ve had on the show, and Cyndi is always the person who takes the lead in introducing those three guests.

Cyndi Burnett: So first we had Susan Riley, and she is the director of the Arts in integration in Steam. And then we had Dana Henrickson, who is a creativity and education researcher. And then finally we had Emma Watson, who was a gifted educator. So we have all three there, Matt. We have a researcher, we have an educator, and we have a practitioner.

Cyndi Burnett: So I think we had a nice blend of different perspectives in this particular group of three.

Matthew Worwood: Totally agree. And I do think we, we do make an effort when we have all of these guests, we line them up, we do work out, which three go together. So we can have these wonderful debrief episodes.

Matthew Worwood: But now I’m sitting here wondering who are we starting off with for the debrief episode?

Cyndi Burnett: I think we should start off with Susan Riley So what did you walk away with from Susan Riley’s episode?

Matthew Worwood: Love the conversation with Susan Riley. A lot of what she shares and is written about is things that, that we also share on the podcast and have also written about.

Matthew Worwood: So it was lots of like-minded like-minded minds coming together in the conversation. I will add that I tried to play Devil’s Advocat. A couple of times and pretty much failed, I felt. One of the things that I think she really emphasized is it’s come up on the show, but she was really direct.

Matthew Worwood: It comes down to money. Why are we not focusing more on creativity and education? It comes down to money and I understand the connections that were being made, and I did probe a little bit about, how is she defining creativity when we’re talking about not enough money?

Matthew Worwood: Is it because she’s seeing a reduction in the arts? Which there’s an argument to be had that can have a reduction in creativity, but doesn’t necessarily mean that we can’t then go and pursue creativity in other subjects as well. In that conversation, I thought, I don’t know if it is about money.

Matthew Worwood: I think it’s actually about instructional challenges across the system. And of course we have money to solve some of those instructional challenges. And of course we have money to improve instruction. So that’s the connection. But I don’t know about you. Did you think? It really just comes down to money.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt, I had the same thought and that actually bridges nicely into my insight because I really struggled with the money piece because there are a lot of schools that I’m familiar with that have a lot of money, and when I go to them with creativity, they say that’s not the priority. So it’s really.

Cyndi Burnett: Much more about priorities, which we’ve also talked about in past episodes. I do think a lot of it is about time now., Susan did talk about this bridge between if you have more money, then you can buy teachers more time to do things. I’ve been working with a group of gifted educators in Mansfield, Texas, and we had our final session together after six months working together.

Cyndi Burnett: Each month we had a different topic and yesterday was our last session and the biggest barrier they said. That they face at their school in bringing creativity into the classroom is the fact that they don’t have time. They have so much content they need to cover that. Even infusing just a small little piece takes a lot of deliberate thought on their part to make sure it happens and to make sure that they have time to really explore it.

Cyndi Burnett: Because if you think about. Creativity, particularly in relationship to divergent thinking. And I’m not saying that creativity is all divergent thinking. Divergent thinking is an aspect of creativity, but if, even if you just look at it from that perspective with divergent thinking, it takes time to generate lots of ideas.

Cyndi Burnett: It takes time to generate different types of ideas and different categories of ideas. And if you’re only looking for one right answer. And you don’t have the time, it doesn’t make sense to bring in, say, divergent thinking. So what they shared with me is they wish they had more time in the classroom and more freedom to really bridge beyond just what they are meant to cover and to explore student interests and really explore student ideas and questions and things like that.

Cyndi Burnett: Can Money by that kind of time. I don’t know. It can buy time in other ways. It can buy time that maybe as a teacher you would get a block of time once a week to go and plan, but is it going to give them more time inside the classroom? I would say no.

Matthew Worwood: Yeah it’s a tough one. And of course, and I think we’re both saying this money is connected to everything.

Matthew Worwood: But, if we go back to our one of our first episodes in season 11 with Henry Smith and I could be misquoting, but I think he was talking about particular school district and he was saying that, the town was having a big conversation about, look, you’ve got $3 billion to solve this, these challenges.

Matthew Worwood: You haven’t been that successful in solving these challenges, so what is another half a billion dollars going to do? And I think he was suggesting that they were having difficulties in answering that question because certainly we see funding going up. And to your point, of course, if we had money and we.

Matthew Worwood: Was gonna go and provide course releases for teachers. We’ve just had an interview with Adam Watson who’s gonna be on the final three episodes in That last debrief, but it was around tabletop games. And it was a great conversation about how tabletop games can bring in creativity and we both got really sold on that concept.

Matthew Worwood: So if I’m an instructor and I want to go and bring in tabletop games, then of course there’s an opportunity. I need time to go out and actually plan that strategy, maybe do a little bit of research around that and money can buy that, but it doesn’t necessarily guarantee that I’m gonna go and do that if I use that time for grading, if I use that time to focus on.

Matthew Worwood: Other needs that I need to address, then I’m still not focusing on creativity. Yeah I agree. I think that the problem’s bigger than that and if we were just to throw more money at it wouldn’t necessarily see an increase in creativity. And, and And certainly if we saw more wealthier school districts, and I think you alluded to that, it might be that they have the ability to focus in on different areas.

Matthew Worwood: But again, that’s not necessarily down to money of. A school, it might be associated with the achievement gap. It might be associated with social economic status around the entire country with some school districts having students from affluent backgrounds and more likely to have a lot more support at home versus others.

Matthew Worwood: But again, just throwing money at it isn’t gonna necessarily guarantee we’re gonna see more dedication, commitment to creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: And I agree, and I think with those really affluent schools, if they have a lot of money, so let’s just say it’s a private school, and parents are paying a lot of money for their children to go to school there.

Cyndi Burnett: They’re not going to necessarily want their children to be more creative because they don’t really understand what creativity is. But they do want their students to get into Stanford and Harvard and Yale so that’s what they’re paying for. So you’re not necessarily going to get into those schools because of, creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: However, I have been seeing articles where colleges are deliberately looking for students who are more, more creative now, and I know NYU is one of them. So if they’re deliberately looking for creativity, so maybe this is where it’s at, Matt, maybe where it’s at is that colleges start to look for students who are exhibiting creative thinking and creative problem solving skills.

Cyndi Burnett: And because of that, it shifts the high schools to say, wait, maybe getting a perfect SAT isn’t the goal. Maybe the goal is to showcase our students’ creativity, and that’s when things change.

Matthew Worwood: Love it. Love it. This concludes the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast. I love it. And you know what, going back to Susan Riley’s episode we did have a conversation about, it’s really about priorities.

Matthew Worwood: And money can sometimes be an indication of where the priorities lie. Yeah. But to your end, I think you’ve brought in the fact that a lot of us, we can swing priorities towards what comes next. And for a lot of us, we want, we see college and good colleges and the best programs as the thing that comes next, particularly in K through 12 education or at that high school level and.

Matthew Worwood: You’re right. Whether it’s to do with inflated grades or whatever it is, more and more colleges are looking for those outliers. Okay. I’m a great college. I’m a great program. We’ve got a whole bunch of PE students coming in with 4.0. Everyone has got the college prep classes, the honors classes.

Matthew Worwood: Yeah. We know that how rigorous they are varies across district to district school by school. So we can’t necessarily judge by that. So it does come down to the idea of within these outliers, where are those outliers and how are they practicing something? Either for themselves or within their community.

Matthew Worwood: And yeah, if they put more emphasis on seeing creativity, examples of creativity, then very quickly we are gonna probably see parent interests or priorities change, and that will probably then force school districts to change. Love it. Cyndi. Love it.

Cyndi Burnett: So let’s talk about Dana Henrickson.

Matthew Worwood: So Dana, as you remember, is a colleague of Punya Misra. So that instructional design background thinking about creativity, a lot of the work that you and I do and Dana, particularly around design thinking and a big part of some of the stuff that I quite often work with schools.

Matthew Worwood: So I was excited to have a conversation about that, but we didn’t quite go down that road. We ended up talking a lot about engagement and we have covered engagement on the show before. Sometimes we’ve even covered, we’ve covered it in a very specific way and spoken about the different types of engagement.

Matthew Worwood: Other times we’ve been speaking around interests and other ways to cultivate and facilitate interest and connect those to the curriculum. But it’s definitely, engagement is a big thing that exists on our podcast already. Now I know when I’ve surveyed a lot of teachers, and you and I are working with the school, and we’ve got that question in, what does creativity mean to you within the context of teaching and learning?

Matthew Worwood: Even within my dissertation study, I’ve seen this pattern continue even into my professional work. Quite often, teachers associate. Them as a creative teacher, as focusing on increasing engagement. So there seems to be this kind of relationship between, when we say creativity, particularly when we’re thinking from the perspective of teaching and designing instruction.

Matthew Worwood: We’re thinking about increasing engagement. During the conversation with Dana, something came to mind and I hope it’s a meaningful question for you, Cyndi, but do you think if we nail the engagement. And we could be as teachers creative in nailing the engagement, but I’m talking about if I’m a student, if you engage me.

Matthew Worwood: Does engagement come before creativity or does creativity come before engagement? Specifically, if I’m a student, am I beginning to engage my creativity and therefore I’m now engaged or. If we think that creativity is a big part of learning, then if you engage me in the curriculum, then creativity is naturally going to follow.

Cyndi Burnett: I don’t think it’s an either or Matt I think it’s a yes, and I think you can engage students and then creativity can emerge out of that, and I think you can. Be creative with students or have students thinking creatively or problem solving creatively, and then engagement comes from that. So I think it’s, it can go both ways.

Matthew Worwood: All right. Now I’ve got a follow up question. I think I agree. So do you think that maybe teachers should be focusing. More an engagement because it’s more tangible or a more easier thing to digest. And then if we succeed in engagement, then we know the creativity is probably happening.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt, I think it depends on the teacher. So I think some teachers who have creative confidence can go in and look at a lesson and say, Hey, I can make these changes and engage students in meaningful ways. And I think it can be tangible. When they have a concrete set of language that they can use around creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: Now, I mentioned the group of teachers I’m working with at Mansfield, and one of the things they said yesterday is I’m so grateful and they were working as a group that we all have a common language around creativity now. Because when we talk about things like risk-taking and openness to new ideas, we all can talk about that.

Cyndi Burnett: Type of thing and bring it into the classroom. And we all understand that’s part of creativity. If you don’t have that common language, it’s much more challenging to understand how to actually do it. And one of the things they said to me yesterday was. I can’t believe how much I’ve actually been doing, how much creative stuff I’ve actually been doing that I just didn’t recognize as creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: So I think if we can show teachers how to spot their own creativity in designing things in the classroom, and that was a big piece of what Dana talked about and something that I walked away with is, going back to what Casey Lathrop told us many seasons ago, I think in season one or two, that teachers are designers.

Cyndi Burnett: So if you think about teachers. Designing things for their classroom and being able to have a language around creativity, then I think that’s gonna be more helpful than just saying, how are we going to engage our students? Because oftentimes with engagement, if we go in without an intentional purpose of what our outcomes are going to be, it’s just gonna be, maybe it’s gonna be fun and games, but it’s not going to meet the learning objectives.

Matthew Worwood: I love it. I agree. The title of my dissertation, if you know this was called Teachers as Designers. And so you’re designing a learning experience, but I think what I’m trying to say is, and I’m also connecting it to some of the literature, if you think about innate motivation, task commitment, right?

Matthew Worwood: We know that these are connected to students expressing creativity. If they’ve got the task commitment, if they. Are have innate motivation, then they’re gonna engage in creativity. Awesome, fantastic. But the reality is, if you’ve got a particular flat lesson and you’re struggling with certain students who don’t have that task commitment, you don’t have that innate motivation.

Matthew Worwood: What I’m saying is you actually probably could design an incredible learning experience that can facilitate, you said at the very beginning of the show, for example, divergent thinking. But if they’re not engaged for whatever reason, for reasons that might exist outside your classroom environment, then I don’t know if we are going to see.

Matthew Worwood: The creativity that we hope we’re setting up. And I think from a language perspective and teachers, I think that’s why I made reference that teachers quite often see it as creativity. But I think I started to sit there saying, you know what? Sometimes it might be that as you’re designing a learning experience, you need to center it on engage.

Matthew Worwood: First of all. I’ve gotta hook these students. I’ve gotta engage them. I know E. Paul Torrance in many ways within his work would’ve covered some strategies that actually wasn’t necessarily about teaching creative thinking skills. It was actually about heightening anticipation as a hook.

Matthew Worwood: To facilitate the engagement. And so even though we do talk so much about engagement, that’s why we’re starting to think maybe the engagement piece may come first from an instructional design perspective, get the engagement. Because without it, you can’t get the creativity.

Cyndi Burnett: You’re making me waiver toward the other side.

Cyndi Burnett: And if a student isn’t. Isn’t able to engage creatively, are they going to be able to engage at all? So if you have a student, and I’m sure you’ve had students like this in your class, Matt, ’cause I’ve certainly had them in mind that, they’ve walked in, they’re staring out the window.

Cyndi Burnett: You don’t know what’s going on. They’re in another planet. They’re not in a good space. So they’re not going to gauge in any capacity, let alone creatively. So I just wonder when you say if someone isn’t engaged creatively first, so they’re not using their creativity, are they going to be able to engage at all?

Matthew Worwood: But, alright. So I hear you. But let’s look at this one. If you’ve designed a learning experience, ’cause this came up recently and it’s about stimulating curiosity. And we’re gonna get students to ask questions and in the book we talk about this, ask questions. Is that more of an outcome?

Matthew Worwood: That we can see as a thing that we can evaluate and see happening as a consequence of stimulating curiosity and curiosity probably would fall in as an engagement, I would argue, right? So what I’m saying is if you haven’t engaged that student, you can encourage all of the question asking you want.

Matthew Worwood: And you can model asking questions, and you can say, I’m gonna give you an a if you ask a really good question. But if that student isn’t engaged in the material if that student just isn’t in the mood, you’re not gonna get them to ask a question. And I think some teachers listening like, yes, sometimes I’m trying to facilitate a conversation.

Matthew Worwood: They’re just not in the mood, they’re not engaging.

Cyndi Burnett: But if they’re not engaging. Do you see what I’m saying here?

Matthew Worwood: I do. I do. But that’s the instruction, right? So that’s, so I get that’s the teacher. You have to use your creativity to facilitate engagement. But what I’m saying is right, and I said at the very beginning, from a student perspective, the learning, it might not be about, I’m gonna go and design a.

Matthew Worwood: Activity that facilitates a particular creative thinking skill, for example. It is. I first need to make sure that within this learning experience I’m designing, I know I’ve hooked the students. I know that I’ve got them engaged, because if I successfully engage them, then I’m gonna be a lot more successful in getting them to express that creative thinking skill.

Matthew Worwood: So I remember Jonathan Nalder for example. He was in season three, and he made this reference about objects. And so it was interesting, we was having a conversation with him about creativity and we was talking about how do you get students to be creative in class? And he was, in essence, he was talking about curiosity, but within his learning design, what he said was, he first takes an object and he has students go around.

Matthew Worwood: And hold the object. And fill the object and just get interested in this object, right? And once they start getting interested in the object, then the questions start coming. They start getting curious because now that object has engaged them in the learning experience.

Matthew Worwood: So now we’ve got the curiosity coming, we’ve got the questions coming, but without that object. Which may be connected to the lesson. It could be a moon rock. I think actually the example he shared was a moon rock. He may not have had the questions coming up from the moon if they played a simple video that wasn’t very fun or engaging, so it was the moon rock.

Matthew Worwood: He deliberately wanted to bring objects in because he saw that as his strategy for designing a learning experience. That first started with, let me get the students engaged first.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt, what you’re talking about is heightening anticipation, as you mentioned from E. Paul Torrance. And obviously I’ve got a book on that, the Torrance incubation model.

Cyndi Burnett: And I am a huge advocate for objects. I think that holding that object is also creative in itself. So I think, we’re saying the same thing really. Creativity and engagement are both important. Do we need to get them engaged first? Yeah, I think it, it is helpful as you mentioned, do we have to, in order to engage them creatively?

Cyndi Burnett: I’m not sure, but. It’s something I will think about

Matthew Worwood: and I’m still thinking about it as well. Alright, so that was a fun conversation. Hopefully people kept with us with that one. Alright, this is why Cyndi and I have a separate show just for us on Marco Polo. All right.

Cyndi Burnett: Many ramblings of Cyndi and Matt.

Cyndi Burnett: Emma Watson was our last. Interview and we talked with Emma, who was a gifted educator from my area in Western New York, and she talked about Wonder Museums and I left just thinking about how I wish I had Wonder Museums when I was in school, and it made me think about if I was a elementary school teacher, what kind of Wonder Museum would I want to create for my students?

Cyndi Burnett: Matt, you know, I’ve been on this kick of like, what do people geek out about? And I think having a Wonder Museum around something that you might geek out about or students geek out about. ’cause she talked about, the buffalo bills or fantasy football. So, Matt, here’s my question for you.

Cyndi Burnett: This isn’t an insight, it’s a question. What kind of Wonder Museum would you like to build? For students. And it maybe it’s for your own children, maybe it’s for your university students. What kind of Wonder Museum would you build if you could build one?

Matthew Worwood: I love that question, Cyndi and I think when we were at the conference you had asked me that.

Matthew Worwood: In, at the workshop and I had spoke a lot about planes ’cause I geek out about planes. But funny enough, I had an opportunity to think a little bit more about this. ’cause I was on the board, I dunno if you noticed, I was on the board of a children’s museum, a local C children’s museum called Ever one the Children’s Museum in Newtown, Connecticut.

Matthew Worwood: I was on the board there, I think, for two, three years. And I did look at it and I’m like, you know what? There’s some really fun, creative things to curating exhibits and experiences in a museum. And of course we talk a lot about that in, in the episode. But I like volcanoes. I, I think I’ve shared with you I remember, reading about Mount Kraton Mount Mount.

Matthew Worwood: I’ve forgotten the name of it, but in a, in the big volcano in Indonesia that I think erupt in the 18 hundreds. And I read it in an encyclopedia. I was like, wow, this just got me really hooked on volcanoes. So whenever I get a chance,, if there’s a volcano, I’m climbing the volcano and I’m getting as high.

Matthew Worwood: There’s a lot of fun stories and some probably silly stories of me and volcanoes, but I like bringing rocks, like all these different volcanic rocks and you hold them. And it’s weird. I’ve got this theme of holding objects in this episode. . I was thinking I’ve gone too much detail into your question, but in essence it would be around volcanoes.

Cyndi Burnett: Okay. That would be fun. What about Be fun? Matt, I love everything dance and I am a dancer at heart, so I think if I could create a Wonder Museum, it would be where you could walk into a room, let’s say it’s a library and there’s different stations where you could learn different moves from different decades.

Cyndi Burnett: So seeing, looking at the historical per. Of dance and how it’s changed over the decades and different types of dance and where they stemmed from. I think that would be so much fun and students would have to try to learn how to do like a little piece of dance from each of those different decades, and then they would have to put together their own little dance piece.

Cyndi Burnett: That’s what I’d like to do.

Matthew Worwood: I love it. And I think the tough part of this question is the designer in me, right? I can’t help but start thinking about how it would de, how you would design it. So I can see it in the same way I saw the volcano one, but let’s just say with the concept, I absolutely love it.

Cyndi Burnett: So did you have any insight that you wanna talk about from

Matthew Worwood: Emma Watson? No just building on it. You’re listening to that episode and you’re like, one, another fantastic example of creativity from an educator at a school. And. You’re sitting there and with the passion that Emma has for this project I think in the next couple of years you could see it really growing and as it’s growing.

Matthew Worwood: You’re sitting there and you’re like there should be an essence, a museum in. Every school different classes can have responsibilities for curating an exhibit of some sort. Exactly what you asked me. And I was thinking, coming back to time and money, it’s not as if we don’t already have president for this, presidents for this, because I remember when I was a grade one teacher.

Matthew Worwood: I would when we would cover insects or bugs, when I say grade one in the US it’s probably around the reception age ’cause they go to school a little bit early. But I was a grade one teacher and when we covered insects. And how they were different from other animals. I would literally set up a bug hunt and they would literally kinda like, I would take the home corner and turn it into a jungle.

Matthew Worwood: It’s like you got the trees, the grass, all these, and they would dress up as an explorer and they put the spectacles on and the magnifying glass and they go in there. I didn’t have real insects that I think today I probably would put real insects but I just had.

Matthew Worwood: Obviously plastic insects, but they would have to go and find the insect and obviously log them into the books. But that is in some ways like a child’s museum. So we already have it. We already have, many of us have these spaces, at least at the kindergarten level. So I’m sitting there and my takeaway is, listen, go build an exhibit.

Matthew Worwood: Go have a museum at your school. And I just think that will just, I dunno. I love it. I loved it. I’ll stop there.

Cyndi Burnett: I love the idea of students building their own exhibits. I think that would be amazing, and I think it would also be a great opportunity to bring in divergent and convergent thinking and have them generate all the ideas for possible.

Cyndi Burnett: Wonder Museums in their classroom and you could have a Wonder Museum Day where students go from room to room and explore the different museums from each classroom. I think it would be fun to bring parents or grandparents in for that to explore the different Wonder Museums where kids are talking about things almost like a science fair, but where it’s very experiential and students get to talk about the things that they’re learning about.

Cyndi Burnett: I think that would be a lot of fun. And I love that idea, Matt. If you’re a teacher out there listening and you say, next year I’m going to plan on doing a Wonder Museum in our whole school, we would love to hear it from you, because that would be a really fun follow up episode to see how it goes and how teachers might implement that.

Matthew Worwood: Yeah. I love it. I’m gonna stop short of saying we should actually come up with a Fueling Creativity and Education podcast Teachers award for the best. I know. We gotta stop short, but we got, we I want to do this award at some point, Cyndi, because my gut feeling is there’s probably already teachers there that are designing these types of learning experiences that I think the key piece with Emma, which I love is the fact that, she has established a branded museum, and has responsibility for that museum in the school.

Matthew Worwood: That is part of that community. And if you are doing something similar, I think that’s. A way of thinking about it is does your school have an opportunity to establish more of kinda like a branded museum through your work? How might you facilitate that and how might you take it to the next level?

Matthew Worwood: And yeah let’s get you on the show. Please reach out to us.

Cyndi Burnett: Matt, I think that wraps this debrief session up and it was great to talk with you about our latest three episodes and we’ve only got three more to go.

Matthew Worwood: Yes. We only have three more to go. We hope to keep your engagement because with your engagement will come creativity.

Matthew Worwood: Now, if you’ve enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend and hopefully we look forward to wrapping up the school year with you. We’re not quite there yet, but we know for some people. They might have it on their minds. So what does that mean? Cyndi and I are still taking ideas. We are narrowing down some ideas for the Summer Listen and Learn series, we are receptive to possibly even coming and doing some live shows at some locations.

Matthew Worwood: We’re still in the divergent thinking phase. There’s been some great ideas that have been suggested. Already. So if you have any ideas for the Listen and Learn series or perhaps opportunities to partner in some way, please reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. We’d love to hear from you.

Matthew Worwood: My name’s Dr. Matthew Ward, and my name is Dr. Cyndi Burnett.

Cyndi Burnett: This episode was produced by Cyndi Burnett and Matthew War. Our podcast assistant is Anne Fernando, and our editor is Sheik Ahmed.