Neil Bergenroth:
Some students think, oh, I’m computer science. That’s really hard. I don’t know if I can do that. But then you sit them down, you teach them to do something. In that moment of it’s more like a huh. And that huh means I did it. It wasn’t that hard. Maybe I could do this.

Neil Bergenroth:
And then you just open their minds to other things as well.

Matthew Worwood:
Hello everyone. My name is Doctor Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood:
This is the fuelling creativity in Education podcast.

Cyndi Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.

Matthew Worwood:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood:
So let’s begin.

Cyndi Burnett:
If you are an educator who is looking for inspiring stories from fellow educators who have found a way to connect their life passions to the curriculum, then this is an episode that you’re going.

Matthew Worwood:
To appreciate because today we are interviewing Neil Bergenroth, a lifelong educator and most notably a us rowing level three rowing coach. Bergen Roth is an award winning app developer, entrepreneur, and someone who greatly values community service and developing innovative learning environments. Byrgenroth is the director of the Upper School technology department and the Pauline Farland Walter Upper School master teacher chair at Holland hall, an independent school in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Bergenroth also currently serves as director of outreach at Tulsa Youth Rowing association. He has combined his passions and created a curriculum integrating rowing and STEM. He also manages programs that have been established to provide more access to the sport of rowing in under resourced communities. With over 25 years of classroom teaching and coaching experience, Bagnon Roth aspires to develop student athletes who strive to impact their communities. Welcome to the show, Neil.

Neil Bergenroth:
Hey, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate the invite. Thank you.

Matthew Worwood:
Actually, before we start, I do want to talk a little bit about the invite just to kind of inspire anyone else who wants to come on the show, because we all met. You came to a presentation that Cindy and I recently had at the learning and brain conference in New York City.

Neil Bergenroth:
Yeah, we. What attracted me to that was the entrepreneurial spirit behind it. And the first question you asked was, does anybody have a blog or a podcast or something? And I said, well, I have a YouTube channel, but I didn’t want to put my hand up so I didn’t know if that counted, but I thought immediately, these are my people. So thank you for the presentation.

Matthew Worwood:
Well, it was great. And thank you for coming up to us afterwards, because as soon as I heard your story, I was like, oh, we haven’t covered anything like that on the podcast before. And before, I kind of like, you know, we get too much into that story. We haven’t really spoken about sports in, in general. And so I’d like to kind of start off there by having you talk a little bit about how you made connections between your passion for rowing and making that connection to learning and the classroom.

Neil Bergenroth:
Yeah, it’s a great question. Well, I started rowing when I was 13 in the UK and rode for five years, got a scholarship to row at Boston University when I graduated high school. It’s one of those things that rowing can do is really open doors for you. And then got a degree in education. Actually, my major is a bsc in human movement studies. And everybody around me thought, oh, he’s going to be a teacher. And I thought I was going to be a coach. Coach.

Neil Bergenroth:
And I ended up going to a boarding school after I graduated, and having rowed immediately got in the coaching launch and started to row and started to really enjoy that. And then about five years on, I got engaged to a wonderful woman, Cathy, who I met at the boarding school. First job out of college, and she’s from Tulsa. So that’s why I ended up in Tulsa and found a rowing club. I thought, I got online and thought, do they have a roaming club? Yes, they had a roaming club. They had a person that I love. So I thought, the two and two can go together. That works well.

Neil Bergenroth:
And so in 2002, I arrived, volunteered for the first year, and then started a community rowing program and then got a job at a school. As we mentioned, Holland hall. Taught 8th grade science for five years and then have taught chemistry for about 15. And about 2016, I kind of reached a turning point or a crossroads in that I couldn’t really full time coach anymore, so I kind of stepped down from that. But if rowing’s in your blood and something you’re really passionate about is there, I needed to find ways to stay connected with the sport, even if it meant I wasn’t going to be a full time coach and a launch six days a week. And I’d started to learn iOS mobile development. I always programmed and the school supported me with that. And I thought, well, how can I get stem and rowing and app development all to kind of find that middle point? Where do they all meet? And that really was the birth of the app, Rowingstem, which is an app that I built to work with the concept two rowing machine, which is pretty standard machine, it’s pretty well accepted as one of the better machines in the indoor rowing world, and certainly a machine that coaches will use to evaluate student athletes for college scholarships or college opportunities.

Neil Bergenroth:
And it has a bluetooth device on it. And concept two are great. They publish all of their documentation. So I just sort of dove into how do I get the data from this rowing monitor? And it’s basically creating 17 to 20 different data points every time you row a stroke on the machine. And I started to look at the rowing machine less as of an exercise machine, which of course it is, and more of a potential classroom for student athletes to learn math, physics, all those different concepts. But the key part was instead of the teacher saying, here’s a worksheet that I made for you with some data points, the kids actually get on the machine, create the data themselves, and then use the app to analyze the data or offload the data into various data formats that they can work with in the classroom. And that was, that was really how I came to be building Rowingsdam.

Matthew Worwood:
Neil, I know that Cindy has a question, but I do want to quickly express that I think that story there is an example of human creativity, because I’m not entirely sure if something like AI would have the capacity to make that connection with rowing and then the data output that we can obtain from a rowing machine and then transform that into a learning experience. And so I just wanted to share that before Cindy’s question, because I think it was a phenomenal story. One of the reasons why I want to bring you onto the show, that human connection piece, bring it on. AI, I don’t think you’ve got that in you.

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Neil, I have a rowing machine in my basement. I’ve never used it, but the boys in my house have used it. Let’s just say that I get on the rowing machine and I have this app. How do you relate what’s on the app with science and technology and math? Can you give us some examples?

Neil Bergenroth:
Yeah, I can give you an example like you might find in a physics classroom. For example, one of the things that got me into the app development was on the PM five monitor. We have something called a force curve. And while it’s not directly reading the force on the handle, every time you row a stroke, you’re going to put acceleration on that handle, and the electronics in the device will figure out every zero, one, 5 seconds what the derived force is on the handle. So what you end up with is like a haystack looking almost like a parabola on the screen, which gives you information. As a coach, if it looks smooth, it means it’s a good stroke and it’s accelerating well, or if it’s got hiccups in it, it means there’s disconnections in that stroke. Now, the area under the curve is, on some rowing machines, the work done force times distance. On the concept two, it’s force times time, which is impulse.

Neil Bergenroth:
So it’s a little bit different, but essentially it’s the same idea. And what I wanted to do was grab that and figure out how do I get those data points and bring that into the classroom. So this is a real world example of something you might do that a student can relate to, but more importantly, the student can feel the data. I think sometimes, you know, for example, we can also collect time and distance. So we can have the athlete row for a minute very, very slowly, right? And it’s going to collect a data point, a distance and a time for a minute every second. And then we could tell them to row really, really fast, and then it’s going to collect another 60 data points, and then we can tell them to row really, really slowly for another 60 data 60. So they got a three minute lab, which basically involves rowing. And then you can plot that on the app, and you’re going to see gradient, you’re going to see slope.

Neil Bergenroth:
So I think there’s one thing, like when you’re in a science classroom and you’re showing a diagram on the board and explaining, well, this is what this graph does. But the advantage of this is that you can get an 8th grader on the machine. I’ve had this experience where I got the 8th grader on the machine, and we did that, like, mini lab. And when they saw that graph in the middle section with the slope being much higher, because for that middle minute, you’re going a lot faster, so therefore the graph is going higher, they immediately made the connection as to what is the visualization actually showing at that particular point in time. And I think that’s an important key thing. It would be like the same thing as, like, watching a solid melt, for example. And if we graph that, and it would know, slope up, and then you’d have the actual melting where it would level out. And then as it started to become liquid, it would go up again, like, what is actually happening on that graph and getting the students really understand that.

Neil Bergenroth:
And the advantage of rowing stem is that you feel acceleration you feel impulse, you understand what that is. And I think when you see the light bulbs go on, when the, when the child looks at it and goes, oh, okay, now I see why that. And I’ve had that experience many times with working with students. You get those moments. You’re like, okay, this isn’t just some technology that’s cool. It’s something that actually applies and transfers and does make change in the thinking of a young person.

Matthew Worwood:
William, I think you did a really good example, and I would love to probe a little bit more into the subject area, but I think it’s going to start getting over my head pretty quickly, so I won’t. I mean, that connection you made, to me at least, is unique, and I just love it. I know Cindy and I, we’ve spoken a lot about the passion in students and identifying student interests, but here you are as a teacher that’s also been able to identify your passions and interests and bring that into the classroom. So just out of curiosity, was it like a eureka moment? It just came out of nowhere, or, you know, was it kind of something that you kind of, like, was building upon? Building upon to the point where you kind of, like, ended up with all of these different things, the activities, the lessons, the apps?

Neil Bergenroth:
That’s a great question. I’m going to answer it in this way. I think anytime you create something or develop something, that’s a journey with something like computer science and technology or how do we link these things together? Sometimes the connections aren’t immediately obvious, but it’s kind of like climbing a hill. All right, let’s figure out how to make Bluetooth work and get it to communicate with an iPhone or an Android device. Okay, we’ve got one data point. Now we’ve got that. So we’ve climbed the first hill. Now we look, and there’s three or four more hills in front of us that will look enticing and something that we could, we could consider climbing.

Neil Bergenroth:
And so because we’ve done that first part, now we’re able to see those connections, and now we’re able to climb any of those four hills. Now we climb those four hills, and now the horizon gets even broader because now we have the ability to transfer what we’ve done. So, you know, I think the answer to the question is, yeah, you have to have a vision. Like, you have to have, like, okay, what are we doing? Where are we going with this? What’s the problem? The problem is that, you know, we’ve got kids who are sitting around playing video games on the couch. Okay, well let’s like learning, burn some calories, you know, and we know what that does for student outcomes and things like that. And let’s do that. In the avenue of rowing, you could do this with baseball, you could do this with football. Like you just sat educators down and did a workshop on, okay, we’re all not rowers, but you do softball, you do volleyball, you do this.

Neil Bergenroth:
How does geometry apply to that? And you start getting people to make those connections. Once they’ve done one thing, then it’s like a boulder, right? You start rolling that boulder up that hill and then off it goes and it’s down and you’ve got some momentum and then you can bring other people in and other people can see what you’ve done and then it becomes more enriched because somebody’s going to have an idea outside of you that you might be able to pull in. So I hope that’s a good answer to the question. But it’s just been my experiences and also anything like computer science. I think some students think, oh, I’m computer science. That’s really hard. I don’t know if I can do that. But then you sit them down, you teach them to do something in that moment of it’s more like a huh.

Neil Bergenroth:
And that huh means I did it. It wasn’t that hard. Maybe I could do this. And then you just open their minds to other things as well.

Cyndi Burnett:
I love the journey piece of this because it’s so integral to the creative process in terms of you take one step, then you take two steps and then you see more things and you fall backward and you, you keep going forward and then you fail a little bit. And it reminds me actually, Matt, of one of our earlier episodes with Bea Lederman, who was also an educator and found an interest that she had on taking photographs, micro photography and bugs. And so she had this interest and said, I wonder if I could do micro photography and bugs. And that led to her sharing her pictures with her students. And then it led to a book on science. And now she’s published numerous books in this area. But it started with one step and one spark. So for those educators out there listening, I really encourage you to think about the things in your life that really spark your curiosity and your interest and your passions and think about how you might merge those in the same way that Neil has just described to us.

Cyndi Burnett:
I mean, what a beautiful intersection. And you come in with this newfound appreciation for STEM subjects because you also have an interest in rowing. And it also goes to this, you know, one of the creativity skills that I talk about, which is make it swing, make it ring, and bringing in music and movement into classes and how impactful that can be for those students who are especially more physically oriented to want to learn by doing and doing physical things. So I really love how you brought your passion in and I’m curious, Neil, have you had students who have pushed back on you? That said, I don’t really want to do rowing. It’s just not my thing. I’m not a sports, a sports student. And how do you respond to that? Or do you not require all students to try this out?

Neil Bergenroth:
Well, mainly our programs are involved or deployed in the community. So, you know, typically, you know, when we do that, we’re working with alternative schools such as the Union alternative school who don’t have a PE program, but we got a grant with the Tulsa Regional STEM alliance and bought six rowing machines for them. And what they do is they let every student in the school try the rowing and then end up letting them select what elective they want to do. And we usually end up with eight to twelve students who love rowing and want to continue and to do the activity and all the rest of it. So that’s typically how it works. But I think the real key is whenever I’m in a classroom of students, and this has kind of evolved over time, is coming in as not Neil the science teacher or Neil the technology teacher. But coming into the classroom is like Neil the human being and being authentic and sharing, sharing your loves of these things. Because when kids see that you’re passionate about something that feeds their spirits in their way.

Neil Bergenroth:
And I’ve sort of switched my mind into more, all right, I’m going to teach some things and yes, there’s knowledge and content, but just getting excited when something works or when they fix a bug or something like that builds confidence in them and then providing them projects where they can channel, well, what is it about you that you’re interested in giving enough scaffolding for them to have the skills and say, okay, now what do you want to go with that? And I always say to the kids, they’re like, well, what do you want? And I say, well, surprise me. And kids never let you down. When you say surprise me, they always come back with something really awesome and something you’ve never thought of. And I think that’s the energy that keeps me coming back to the classroom.

Matthew Worwood:
You know, I don’t know if I’ve got a question here, but just an observation starting with Cindy’s question because it was a fascinating question because rowing is your passion. It’s not necessarily a passion of the students. So I was curious when Cindy posed that, because I don’t see myself as a rower. So actually, even though you think this is cool, I might not think it’s cool, and maybe I now become disconnected from the learning experience. But in your response, what I’m hearing, and I think it’s something that actually we can all identify with, is that we can recognize passion, right. And we can recognize authenticity within anyone’s approach to learning. And I know that I, you know, I, you know, I’ve had bad semesters sometimes teaching, and I sometimes think that my passion and energy for learning, like, I just, I really enjoy teaching and I’m highly passionate about it and I sometimes feel that my passion gets me through that. But I think what your story’s bringing is that the rowing has ignited your passion for teaching.

Matthew Worwood:
It’s, it’s allowed you to bring in you to the classroom. And even though a student in your class might not necessarily connect with rowing, they connect more with you because they can connect passion and interests. And I think that’s something really fascinating into your. What you did, Cindy, putting that call out to teachers, I think it continues to emphasize because we certainly had a lot of passionate teachers on the podcast. And I know that Cindy and I talk a lot about being inspired by, by the passionate educators that we bring on the show. And it obviously goes to say that probably you as a teacher are the only one that can go and find what you’re passionate about. And once you found that, then the next challenge is to find a way of bringing it in the classroom, however that might be. But if you can bring it into the classroom and make that connection, then whether or not the students buy into the thing you brought in, they can probably still buy into your passion and it will elevate the learning experience no matter what.

Cyndi Burnett:
I just want to build on that map because I think that authentic piece is so critical. And I was just talking with my husband over lunch and he said, I just saw this clip of a teacher who taught all of our students how to do the thriller dance. Now that’s something I would do as a teacher because I love to dance. I’m a dancer. But I can imagine there being students that are like, I am not getting up and learning the thriller dance. And Neil, you probably would say the same thing, but when you sort of bring this authentic self to the classroom and you say, hey, we’re going to try this out, and, you know, giving them that choice, which we also talk about a lot on the, on the podcast, Matt, like, we’re going to give you a choice. You can go and do the thriller dance over here or with Cindy, or you can go and do some rowing with Neil, or you can go play some football soccer with Matt and go to the place that you have choices, as well as you’re going to be with people who really love this thing that they’re doing, right. So I just think it’s really fun to think about that choice, giving students the choice and to connect with those that they also feel authentically connected to because of the same passion.

Matthew Worwood:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school? Look no further than our podcast sponsor, curiosity to create.

Cyndi Burnett:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

Matthew Worwood [00:21:30]
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode.

Matthew Worwood:
Now, Neil, probably something that myself and other people can connect with is just sports, right? Like, sports is cool. And certainly as I’ve got older as well, I’ve started to enjoy more sports, even sports that I didn’t play. So recently I got into basketball. And, you know, Cindy and I, we’ve had conversations on the show. I remember Principal ow, we spoke a lot about playing chess, which is a game, and the ability to persevere, even though you’ve, you’ve suffered a loss to continue to get better at the game, to embrace failure. You know, there’s a lot of life lessons within sports. And of course, sports, going back to what we said early on in the show, can evoke a lot of passion in people. So I was wondering, you obviously have a background as being an athlete, being a coach.

Matthew Worwood:
Can you talk a little bit about the relationship with sports and maybe just general perseverance and success in life, even if it’s outside the sports world when.

Neil Bergenroth:
You think about something like rowing. So I’ll go specific to rowing, and that is, rowing is not a game in the sense it’s more of a discipline. It’s more of a, it’s more like yoga in the sense that it’s, there’s a process to it. For example, you know, you look at successful people and they’re like, oh, yeah, they’ve had a lot of success and this, that and the other. But what you’re not seeing there is the number of times they have to have to pick themselves up. And so, for example, for my own personal life, I rode in the varsity eight at Bu for three years, and we had about 21 different races. And we were racing crews like Harvard and Yale and, you know, the big leagues, which is really what I wanted to do. I wanted to challenge myself.

Neil Bergenroth:
And I won probably about three or four of those races over that three year. We still did okay, and we were still in the top twelve in the country at different times. We still did. We did well, but every single time. I think the hardest thing about the realization after I finished my first year, my sophomore year of varsity, was like, that’s how hard you have to train and you still don’t win. And I think that’s an essential psychological piece for people to understand is, you know, I read in, when I was doing sports psych at BU, that there was some research that said that some tennis players actually play less than their best, so that when they leave and they lose, they always walk away with a sort of mental protection. Well, I didn’t really play my best, so therefore I lost. I think the true character of an athlete is somebody that’s prepared to put all the chips in and do everything right.

Neil Bergenroth:
Nutrition, sleep, build good relationships with the people around you. You know, all those leadership things that go together in any sports process and put everything in and risk the fact that you might not win everything, but be able to walk away from that process with, you know, what? I did everything I possibly could, didn’t get the result I wanted. But look at all those jewels that I picked up along this way. And now I’m off to the next adventure. If you can get to that point and put all the chips in and still walk away, win or lose, I don’t think anybody’s a loser.

Cyndi Burnett:
And I think that absolutely relates to creativity as well. Would you agree, Matt?

Matthew Worwood:
I mean, there was a lot in there, and I think all of it related to creativity totally.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, I think, you know, putting all your chips in, I think people are reluctant to really give their own creative selves that permission to put it all in because they’re afraid of failure and they have that vulnerability. And I think the same thing is true with sports. It’s not something I’ve ever thought about before. But I think there’s a lot of parallels there.

Matthew Worwood:
Even the perseverance piece, putting it all into training I mean, this is a true story, right? And I’ve actually been joking around and using the word to my eldest son that the track represents life right now because he wanted to go and he wanted to do some sports and he said they wanted to have a go at track. And he hasn’t really trained at track, but he wanted to kind of come in the top three. And I kind of was mindful about the fact that he’s going to be competing with some middle school athletes that probably have been training for the past couple of years, naturally fit, and they’re going to be running some very competitive times. And he was far away from those competitive times. But what I was trying to do is teach him that it’s all about perseverance, that, yeah, he’s going to work his hardest. And I said, you may do your very best and work your very best, but you still might not break into the top three. But actually what you have to do is you have to kind of perfect train and perfect to get an extra few seconds. An extra few seconds.

Matthew Worwood:
An extra few seconds. I’m sure with, with rowing, you know, when he was talking about, you know, just the pulls, you know, working out, do you pull with your, you know, push with your legs? How do you position your back? All these little intricacies that go into really kind of playing sports at a top level can be the difference between a second, which could be the difference between fourth and fifth place. But also it’s about the fact that even though you’ve worked so hard for that extra, extra second, it still might not necessarily bring you to first place. And that being able to just persevere and learn despite that, I think is huge. And I think the other piece of it that I’ve been speaking a lot with my son, and I think it comes back maybe to the concept of the growth mindset, is focusing on the PV’s and he is still getting disheartened because he’s not. PBS personal bests. Sorry, Cindy was pulling a face, but it’s like being in that scenario. And it was really good on the track, on the app for the track meet, they record student PBS for the season, personal best for the season.

Matthew Worwood:
And I thought that was huge because even if you don’t necessarily get a qualifying time or you don’t necessarily pick up a point because you finished in the top five for that race, the key point is you could still see that people were getting pbs, so they were still making progress. I think there’s an opportunity to teach students so long as you’re growing and making progress. You are being successful, right? And as you point out, Neil, even if you only won three of those x amount of races that you, you had, you still probably had a sense of making progress and competing at the highest level. And that’s really what it’s about. I think we want to teach our kids to try and go out there and compete, compete at the highest level, whether that’s the highest level in their community, their region, their school, whatever it is, it shouldn’t always be setting the bar to go and get the gold medal because not everyone does get the gold medal. And I know I’ve probably gone off on a tangent now, but I think that there was just a lot in that story you shared, Neil, about how actually competing in sports and developing the right attitude both in training and how you respond to a loss is really life lessons. And I think those life lessons certainly can contribute to our creative efforts as well.

Neil Bergenroth:
I think I’d add to that on a micro level, whenever you’re rowing in a boat, there’s the drive where your blade’s in the water and you’re moving the boat past that point. And then there’s recovery, which is when we say, let the boat run. And sometimes you’re building an app or you’re building a curriculum or you’re, sometimes you’re goal focused and that’s what you want to do and you know where you want to get to. But sometimes you got to let your boat run, sometimes you got to detach, you’ve got to walk the dock, you’ve got to take a break, watch a movie, something like that, and then come back to it. So I think the way that you move a boat and a team successfully is not over training. You’re doing your best in the moment, but then allowing things to occur. And sometimes the universe kind of moves around you and you make new connections or that bug with that force curve that you couldn’t quite figure out. Well, now, 12 hours later, after a good night of sleep, you have it.

Neil Bergenroth:
And I think those two with rowing and any of that process is there is time to just let your brain simmer a little bit. And I found that to be helpful.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, Neil, it’s time for us to wrap up. So we end every episode with three tips you would give to educators to help them integrate creative thinking into their classroom. So what three tips would you recommend?

Neil Bergenroth:
I think the first thing would be, again, to think about your own passions and let that drive, whatever project it is you’re doing. Personally, I’m very passionate about entrepreneurship. Like, this is something that I got from my dad. So I try to build projects that teach the kids how to, I don’t know, build websites or how to make those websites so that they rank highly on search engines. So real world applicable skills in terms of making their classrooms creative. I mean, create that save space. Create that space where, you know, it’s okay to make mistakes, it’s okay to iterate. I think sometimes kids think they have to get the paper perfect the right time.

Neil Bergenroth:
And I think there’s in any process, you know, being able to give them that time to explore their ideas, you know, which is sometimes difficult because, yes, we’re on timelines and we’ve got this, that and the other. But ultimately, what we’re teaching isn’t to make a product. What we’re teaching is what is that process to get to that product. And then the final thing I would say is, be authentic in your teaching. And that is, you know, when you make a mistake or you say, I’m trying this out for the first time, like, you’re modeling that growth mindset, you’re being vulnerable and saying, this may or may not be awesome, but let’s work through it together. And you become less of a sage on the stage and more of a coach on the side. And I think that creates an environment where when you’re working together with kids, they feel supported rather than, here’s the project, I’ll see you in two weeks and I’ll grade it. Like, if you’re involved and being metacognitive in your.

Neil Bergenroth:
Well, this is what I think of now, and this is where my brain goes. They don’t necessarily have to go in that direction, but you’re modeling the way that you’re thinking through design thinking or whatever it is.

Matthew Worwood:
Well, Neil, thank you so much. It’s great to have you on the show. And I want to thank you again for coming up and introducing yourself at the end of our presentation and just talking about presentations. Cindy and I will be presenting at the National association of Gifted and Talented conference in Seattle at the middle of November. So if you are there and you listen to the podcast or want to be on the show, please come over and introduce yourself. We’d love to hear from you. And if you have a colleague who’s interested in sports or teachings them, then perhaps they might want to check out Neil’s app or even just be inspired by Neil’s story, and therefore you can share this episode with them. My name is Doctor Matthew Werwood and.

Cyndi Burnett:
My name is Doctor Cindy. Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by Matthew Worwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create, and our editor is Sam Atkinson.