Cyndi Burnett: How do we recognize the creative styles in our students? Because we know creativity doesn’t look the same in every person. It shows up differently in each learner in how they think, how they perceive, and how they engage with the world around them. And if we’re only looking for one version of creativity, we’re likely missing it in many of our students. Cyndi Burnett: Today, we’re going to explore a new tool developed by Crayola that is designed to help us see creativity more fully. More intentionally grounded in both practice and research. This tool focuses on three key dimensions of creativity, how we think, how we perceive, and how we engage. And what we found most compelling in this episode is it gives us a language for the kinds of creativity that often go unnoticed. Cyndi Burnett: And in doing so, helps us build the creative confidence and creative agency our students need to actually use their creativity in the world. So as you listen today, I want you to hold onto this question, who are the creative students in your classroom, and how might your definition of creativity be shaping who you see and who you don? Matthew Worwood: Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Worwood, Cyndi Burnett: and my name is Dr. Cyndi Burnett. Matthew Worwood: This is the Fueling Creativity in Education Podcast. Cyndi Burnett: On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the fields of education. Matthew Worwood: We’ll be talking with schcrayolars, educators, and resident experts about their work challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity, Cyndi Burnett: all with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides. Cyndi Burnett: Teachers, administrators, and emerging schcrayolars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning. Matthew Worwood: So let’s begin. Cyndi Burnett: Today we are diving into a conversation that sits right at the intersection of research practice and real world application. In education, we’re exploring a new Crayola creative styles tool, a free resource that helps people identify their unique creative preferences and what that means for teaching, learning, and collaboration. Matthew Worwood: So we have two incredible guests joining us today. First, we have Dr. Gerard Puccio. Dr. Puccio is a renowned thought leader in creativity and innovation, serving as a state University of New York, distinguished professor and chair of the Center for Applied Imagination, a Buffalo State University, which we have referenced on this show so many times. Matthew Worwood: With a prolific body of work that includes over 70 articles, chapters, and books. Dr. Puccio has made a lasting impact on the study of creative thinking. His contributions to research have earned him the State University of New York’s Chancellor’s Recognition Award for research Excellence, as well as Buffalo State’s presidential medal for schcrayolarship and creativity. Cyndi Burnett: And we are also joined by Cheri Sternman. Cheri is Crayola’s director of Education. She helps community leaders, educators, and parents deepen their understanding of creativity. She provides professional learning workshops and hosts the Crayola monthly online programs, including. Creative Spa for educators. Cyndi Burnett: I think that sounds like fun. The Art of Learning and read along, draw Along where she interviews authors, illustrators, and others who use creativity in their careers from astronauts to athletes. Crayola Creativity Week is a global celebration of creativity that Cheri’s team organizes annually to help 20 million students and 1.5 million teachers from a hundred and. 40 countries around the world experience the power of creativity. That is so impressive, Cheri. So welcome to the show. We’re really excited to have you here today. Gerard Puccio: Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Cyndi Burnett: So today we’re gonna focus in on a new tool called the Crayola Creative Styles Tool that Cheri has been developing in collaboration with Gerard. So before we get to the tool itself, I’d love to start with the why. So Cheri, what were you seeing in classrooms or with educators that signaled a need for something like this tool that you decided to develop? Cheri Sterman: So we’ve all talked with educators who don’t have creative confidence, and they’ll say comments like, I don’t have a creative bone in my body. Cheri Sterman: I can’t even draw a straight line. As if that had anything to do with creativity. And well, teachers and parents know the creativity is really important for children. What we found with some research that we did with the ad council. Is that they don’t have the creative confidence to really step forward and plan creative experiences for kids. Cheri Sterman: And they can be simple creative moments, but if you truly don’t believe you’re creative, that can hold back what you do with kids. And , we all keep saying, oh yes, you are creative. Everyone’s creative in their own way. But until you make that tangible. And you help that individual understand their preference, their style, it goes in one ear and out the other. Gerard Puccio: I’d like to jump on that as well. So a recent line of research in the field, and this is the role that I’ve been playing with Cheri. So when you look at great movie classics and you see, Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin. So I’m sort of the the alter ego for Cheri in terms of bringing in the research background, right? Gerard Puccio: Sort of the straight man and Cheri’s more the dynamic engaging. So just to build on what Cheri said. That is so important, self-efficacy, because we’re recognizing that people, if they don’t understand their own self-identity as a creative person, they’re less likely to push it out into the world with creative courage and creative confidence. Gerard Puccio: And so Cheri’s focus on educators and helping them to grasp their own understanding of themselves as a creative person. And creative self-efficacy is. Hugely important. It’s the starting point. Matthew Worwood: And I think this ties up really well with the conversation we had with Margie Kowalski, who was talking a lot around creative confidence, creative self-efficacy on the show. Matthew Worwood: And, it continues to highlight, how complex creativity is. We have these creative thinking skills, but there are so many different drivers and factors that ultimately can support or hinder. Our creative performance, particularly in the classroom environment. So my understanding is that this tool that you’ve developed with, in partnership with crayola and Gerard, your research is primarily about better understanding how I think within the creative process and with that understanding, I will see an improvement or an increase in my confidence. Matthew Worwood: Is that right? Gerard Puccio: Yeah, essentially and. Matthew, thanks for shining a light on that and the approach in terms of the creative process. I’m gonna broaden it just a little bit. Uh, You made reference to how I think, which is often the core focus of our understanding of the creative process is the thinking that goes into it. Gerard Puccio: But this tool broadens that to also look at how perception. Fuels thinking. And then also to bring in a little bit of learning theory, how your general approach to engaging in the creative process is more reflective or more active. So yes, it’s definitely about helping people understand their thinking. Gerard Puccio: And on top of that, it’s also designed to help people to understand how their perceptions influence what they think. So do you tend to look at. The world and see distinctions or do you tend to see the world as holes, as things that are related? And then how do you engage? So from learning theory, are you someone who’s more reflective and you learn by reflecting, stepping back from a situation or. Gerard Puccio: Through active experimentation. So it’s all three. So to your point, yes, it’s thinking, it’s perception and it’s engagement, and those are the three fundamental dimensions of this tool. Cheri Sterman: I, and I’d just like to add the feedback that we hear in the field when we’ve taken this out. In fact, I just came back from the National Art Education Association conference where we did this. Cheri Sterman: And our teachers had considered themselves experts in creativity, and they said until they experienced this tool. They really didn’t fully understand their own style, and they said, everybody, our teachers learn creative thinking has a continuum from diver to convergent. But what they loved with these two additional dimensions that added such important layers to the way they experienced and interact with their students. Cheri Sterman: So this perception range from seeing the distinct, the perceiving each. Concept or challenges or opportunity as a separate element and really understanding and appreciate uniqueness. To the other end of the continuum perception, which is that ability to connect seemingly on unrelated pieces. Cheri Sterman: They said this was a huge part of creativity in their personal lives, their lives as artists, but also as educators. And then, as Gerard said, the third dimension engage. Offered such an important insight for these teachers because we, many of those who were deliber or incubators who lean towards the reflection side were feeling less confident and saying that this tool honored their approach and definitely are educators and parents. Cheri Sterman: Who just, wanna think about things. And so the way we described it, I’ve worked with a lot of principals who bring this tool into their, their to enhance the collaborative culture in their building. And when you understand that one of your colleagues might be a deliberate or an incubator, and those are two of the preferences in the engagement style, then you know that when a colleague says interesting idea, but let me sleep on it and see if it’s still a Cheri Sterman: good idea. Tomorrow. They’re not being a naysayer. They’re not rejecting you in your ideas. They just have a different approach to engagement. And so if you’re a doer. That’s the extreme end of the engagement. We’re action oriented and ready to go and explore and do. You will find more like-minded people at that end of the continuum, but don’t discount those who need more reflection time. Cyndi Burnett: So one of the components of our podcast is really bridging the gap between the science of creativity and the art of teaching. So I wanna peek behind the curtain a little bit here and hear more about how you came to these three areas of think, perceive and engaged. Is there anything that could be missing? Cyndi Burnett: Gerard, I’m particularly interested in your perspective. Did you help? Create these three dimensions. And how did you look at each of those dimensions in more depth to decide if that’s what it was going to be? Gerard Puccio: Sure. And Cheri, don’t hesitate to jump in as well, because I entered into this after Crayola had. Gerard Puccio: Taken a running start at a model for creativity as a way of explaining conceptually what creativity is that preceded the development of this tool. So we wanna make sure we had a working model. I came in to verify that the model was truly reflective as a subject matter expert. The think piece. Gerard Puccio: So it’s. It’s think, perceive, engage. So how do you think creatively, how do you perceive creatively and how do you engage creatively? So you’re exactly right. Cyndi, in terms of thinking about the science, you and Matthew are well versed in this as well. We started with the core construct of. Gerard Puccio: Creative cognition involves divergent and convergent thinking. Use an analogy here. It’s the engine to the car. It’s where all the power is the torque, right? But you need fuel to go into the engine. That’s your perception. Mm-hmm. And so how pure and clean is your perception as it is fueling that engine. Gerard Puccio: And then engagement to continue. The metaphor engagement is are you putting it into drive or are you reflecting before you’re going into drive, before you start racing down the road. And there’s a great support and you know very well, and I’m sure Matthew does also, given his background, Guilford’s work structure of the intellect was a classic model that really helped us to verify that these dimensions, of course. Gerard Puccio: SOI is much more complicated and we wanted a simple, clean model that really highlighted three key aspects of the creative process. So Cheri, I further, background, ’cause I stepped into this after you were already down the road. Cheri Sterman: But we would’ve changed the path of that just journey if you had not come to come forward with, we were on solid ground. And what I love is that these two additional pieces, these dimensions, add so much beyond just looking at creative thinking. Matthew Worwood: And I just wanna put this model in a little bit more context because while we’ve been talking, there’s particularly, I think Cheri, at the very beginning, there was reference to teachers have taken it as well as students have taken it, going through it. Matthew Worwood: It felt like it was a universal tool, but do you feel like, how do you imagine it being deployed for, I understand, Cheri, you alluded to the idea of, okay, if I’m a teacher, I. Develop my understanding of my preferences and so I might have a better understanding of how I’m gonna interact and engage with solving a problem in my school with my colleagues and peers. Matthew Worwood: So I think I get that, an educator piece, but obviously a big focus as well is cultivating and nurturing. Creativity and creative thinking in students. Could you give us a little bit more information about that context? Cheri Sterman: We’ve really. Heard from teachers that middle school and high school students understand the vocabulary that’s involved. For your listening audience that has not yet used the tool, it’s a series of word pairs, and some of those are metaphorical, like for example, see the forest versus see the tree. Cheri Sterman: So students have to have a certain vocabulary and ability to think in that metaphor way to be able to use the tool. So we originally designed this for educators, then later found that parents found it very useful, and that’s very consistent with what. Crayola and Gerard were hoping for is something that helped the adults who were focused on kids. Cheri Sterman: But we were delighted to hear that older students, once they have a grasp of vocabulary, are also able to do it. So we in fact we just recently changed the website so that it, you can indicate that you’re a student. Under 18 years old, so you don’t have to give your email address, so we could be compliant with that. Cheri Sterman: So kids can use the tool, get the report without providing any private information. What, the way it helps a teacher interact with students is when you’re more aware of where you are on this spectrum this continuum, and that there are others in different places. Some in of, the polar opposite of yours that makes you more open. Cheri Sterman: To appreciating people with a unique style. And so even if it’s a younger child who hasn’t used the tool and you don’t know how, the tool describes their preference, you can take those observations and stretch your self. To be more open to that and recognize that there are individuals who are go do. Cheri Sterman: And that’s not necessarily it might not be your style, but you might be more accepting of a student who approaches their work. And I’m gonna dive in. I’m gonna fly this airplane while I’m building it. That could be with a colleague, a little more accepting of the style difference or with the student. Matthew Worwood: And I just want to add just one more layer of context, because I’m making some assumptions, but I don’t want to necessarily assume that we’ve all got the same assumptions listening to this episode. That specific example there. What you are referencing, and perhaps some of the additional work of Gerard and the Center for Applied Imagination is that, when you’re saying I’m a doer, you’re talking about the person who doesn’t wanna wait for too much information. Matthew Worwood: That the teachers presented an assignment. They’re off. Whereas sometimes you’ve got those students that are like, oh, I don’t wanna go forward yet. Please give me that concrete example so I know exactly what I’m meant to do and how to do it. And so by going and taking this, you would identify perhaps whether you are one or the other. Matthew Worwood: And so more importantly, you might find yourself leaning and having a preference for one way. I have to say, so for example, I know that I’ve been an educator and I’m very comfortable with ambiguity. For example, I like open-ended projects, and one of the things that I’ve had to develop in my practice is to accommodate students that actually want more information and actually need some more support, because sometimes too much ambiguity actually creates anxiety. Matthew Worwood: So becoming more aware of myself as an educator has also helped me see why I might lean toward a particular style of creativity within my assignments that might be comforting for some, but less comforting for others. Cheri Sterman: I recently did this training session with a group of educators, and on the far end of the engagement, there is a deliberator that’s the far end of a seven point continuum. Cheri Sterman: And when an educator said, I deliberate over my deliberations, I’m never quite sure when to go forward. Sometimes I just, say, okay, the lesson is tomorrow and we’re gonna have to do it, and it doesn’t matter. I don’t have any more time. But it helps then when they’re particularly working with, as you said, other students or other faculty who might be in the middle of that continuum, an experimenter saying, okay, we’re going to do small batch test and learn. Cheri Sterman: I don’t have this perfect yet. I’m not ready to put all of my eggs in that basket. So on the continuums and I can share the visual of the seven points on the continuum because I think it’s helpful for people to not only see where they are. But where others around them might be. Gerard Puccio: I think Matt’s observation was spot on and appreciated Matt using yourself as an example. And I know that with your podcast, one of your curiosities around tips, right? So what can teachers use from a practical perspective? And I think one of the practical aspects to this. Gerard Puccio: The path from self-awareness to then self-leadership, right? So if I understand myself better as an educator, my sign of success, if I understand myself, I have to be careful that I don’t project that onto my students. Like I’m someone who, as you were pointing out Matt, you enjoy ambiguity, uncertainty, and you want open-ended situations. Gerard Puccio: That’s more of the divergent oriented thinker. That may not fit for all students. So recognizing it starts with self-awareness and that my sign of success shouldn’t always be my tendencies and my style. I need to be open to others, especially in the classroom. ’cause you’re gonna have diversity that just by default going to happen. Cyndi Burnett: So Matt and I, we both completed the questionnaire and what I really liked about it is it brings about self-awareness and understanding more about what creativity is. It expands people’s definition. I really appreciate that it expands and I think, when Matt and I go into schools, I think that’s one of the biggest things is teachers don’t see themselves as creative. Cyndi Burnett: So usually I just say have you solved a problem in the last week where someone couldn’t just hand you the answer and they all raise their hands? Because that is what teaching is. It is creative endeavor, . My concern with anything like this is always where students particularly latch onto something. Cyndi Burnett: So I’m a free thinker, , so I don’t need to be logical about this. That’s just not what I do. I’m a free thinker, so I don’t need to be practical or realist, so not using it as a crutch number one, which, I’m certified in Gerard’s. Cyndi Burnett: Main measure that he uses Foursight and that’s something that we talk a lot about is you can’t use it as a crutch as well as, making sure that you understand that you can do all of those. Things as well, so how do you frame that for teachers to help them go beyond just, I am this, I’m a free thinking, connecting explorer, which is what I am. Cyndi Burnett: Matt, what were you really quick? Matthew Worwood: I’m actually gonna reveal mine later. I’ve got a follow up question. Cyndi Burnett: Okay. Cheri Sterman: I just wanna answer your question. That first of all, totally agree with you and it is one of the major points we make in the training workshop, but also a lot of people will experience this online without that. Cheri Sterman: So hopefully we have been very clear in the copy online about its states, we are all of this. And your preference just indicates where you are more comfortable, where you tend to go. But we encourage you to be mindful of all the other times and maybe there’ll be a situation where you’re defaulting to your comfortable state and you wanna push yourself in another to broaden your lens. Cheri Sterman: So we are, you’re really encouraging people not to use this as a crutch. And have found in conversations with teachers that they are testing out the water now that they have the vocabulary and realize that they can move up and down this continuum, that’s an important part of having that well-rounded practice in their classroom. Gerard Puccio: Absolutely can I just jump in with the student perspective on this? Because Cheri, I know that you were talking about piloting this with and having some certain grade levels who have sufficient vocabulary to be able to use this. And Cyndi, I a hundred percent, as you. Cited me when you were posing the question. Gerard Puccio: A hundred percent agree. You wanna stay away from labels because we’re all growing and we’re flexible and we can hold all of these within ourselves. It’s just a matter of understanding our preferences. I think the advantage for students and I’m a long ways away from my education, but I remember going through and spending almost all of my time learning about things outside of me. Gerard Puccio: Subjects outside of me, but not spending much time learning about myself. And so I think this does shift the conversation and the focus a bit in education. I’m talking from the student perspective where you feel like you’re learning about other things and not yourself, and this does give you that opportunity for students who. Gerard Puccio: Complete this tool. Some insights into who they are. And I think of course, as sure is pointing out, it has to be framed as you are. All of these things you’re learning about your preferences and your tendencies. Don’t use this as a crutch or a shield, but recognize the directions that you lean in and through that by better understanding yourself, right? Gerard Puccio: You’re learning metacognition and mindfulness and better personal management which we don’t spend a lot of time working on, in, in schools. Matthew Worwood: And my follow up question. I’ve also done your other framework, the CPS test and the thinking styles there. And I can’t remember exactly what I was, but I was somewhere between, I think a developer. Matthew Worwood: And an ideator, and it’s something that I’ve always enjoyed ideating, but as I kinda transitioned into higher education some really kinda like challenging systems to be innovative, to think really big and bold. At least when you’re trying to do something that is gonna be interacting with the fiscal system or interacting with how new courses are passed, which can take years of review, I slowly had to develop other skills. Matthew Worwood: That I think made me more analytical, particularly when it comes to my knowledge of the system. So in this test I got you are practical and I just want to share that because I think I’ve noticed that I have developed. More skills because of the environment to where, I’ve worked. And so I’ve had to develop these skills and actually in some ways prioritize certain skills over others. Matthew Worwood: So what’s fascinating is when I was interacting with the measure, I found myself thinking there’s probably a preference, but then also because I’m more of a seasoned professional. I’ve also got what I now see as important in practice within the environment to which I’m engaging in that creative behavior. Matthew Worwood: So my question is to, to what extent do we typically see the development one? I’m curious to know whether or not people do become more practical with experience. We’ve got all of these ideas that, you can go as big and as bold as you want, and then suddenly you realize, wait. There are kinda like fiscal constraints. Matthew Worwood: And you know what, we’ve only got two weeks to do this, and you know what? I need more information about what’s been done before because I don’t wanna spend a lot of work and then find that we can’t do something down the road. And so I’m just curious, do a, do you think that we become, we swing a little bit. Matthew Worwood: Away from divergent thinking as we progress within our environment. And two, how much does that environment, and when I’m using the word environment, I’m talking about our experience in the workplace really play into these preferences. , Is it a preference or is it something that we don’t lose our preference, but we ultimately have to adapt and see things as more important than others. Cheri Sterman: perhaps Jarred has some thoughts on the first half, but the reason I wanna zoom on the second part is a lot of times when we do this live with people, they’ll say, am I supposed to be thinking about my work life and how I react at work? Cheri Sterman: Or my personal life. And in the beginning I used to say it didn’t really matter. But then when they got the results, they would often make comments like you’re saying. And they’d say, gee, I was surprised to find that I was practical ’cause that’s only my work life. And so what I’ve encourage people to, of course, how, what they wanna be thinking about at the time they’re answering the question’s totally up to them. Cheri Sterman: But I say you’ll often find that the results are more consistent. With how you feel about yourself inside. If rather than thinking about your job or your current responsibilities or your boss and the expectations, if you think about how you approach something you really enjoy doing, and I had this discussion recently with someone. Cheri Sterman: Who’s a lawyer was my brother-in-law, Sarah. He took a, you have to take it to all your relatives, right? And he started answering it as a lawyer and he, and then he kept saying, but it’s not who I’m inside. And I said, why don’t you redo it? Totally thinking about gardening and the kinds of things that I know you love to do, right? Cheri Sterman: Think about your ideal weekend. And he redid it. Think about that. He said, now this is who I am. Gerard Puccio: I, I’ll just jump in quickly. To your point, Matt, humans are adaptable and that is the beauty of our species. It’s the reason why, we’ve inhabited this entire planet with this great range of climates, is that we can adapt ourselves to situations. And so I think. That’s why this is a tool. ’cause it’s supposed to be a conversation. Gerard Puccio: It goes back to what Cyndi was saying earlier about avoiding labels. It’s meant to be a dialogue and get a dialogue started around creative process and learning. And so this gives you some information that allows you to then think about as you you did so well in terms of reflecting on your interactions and growth over time in different situations. Gerard Puccio: It gets you to think about these are some core aspects of the creative process. Here are my tendencies and my preferences, and as I move through different environments, I can adjust myself and I can make accommodations. But as Cheri pointed out in terms of. When you’re in that safe space that fits you and you can be who you are, maybe that starts to, to show some of your true colors. Gerard Puccio: But the reality is there are nuances and we adjust ourselves from situation to situation. And I think that’s an important dialogue and that’s one of the keys to this tool is to start that dialogue to have a common framework, a common set of dimensions to work off of that allows you, especially when working Gerard Puccio: with colleagues or working across teachers to administration or vice versa, or teachers to students. You have this common vocabulary, you have this common framework. You have this common model that allows for better understanding of each other self and others. Cyndi Burnett: And I actually think I can give you an example of that because Matt, you said you were logical on how you think. Cyndi Burnett: I’m at the other side of the continuum, which is free thinker, and sometimes when Matt and I are working together, I’m like coming up with some crazy ideas, and I’m like, we’re divergent thinking we can come up with crazy ideas. He’s yeah, but it’s just not practical. right now is always the time and place for Yeah. Like Matthew Worwood: We gotta record the show tomorrow. We know it’s only gonna be 40 minutes. We know our resources available to us. Matthew Worwood: And I think that comes in a little bit with the, withhold judgment debate that we know exists within divergent thinking. But. Let’s keep with Cyndi and I’s example a little bit with my follow up. One of the things I really admire about Cyndi and working with Cyndi is that she, and I’m just listening to my question now, I’m actually contradicting myself. Matthew Worwood: But she’s been able to maintain, incredible openness and to engage divergently most of the time. I think there are some time, Cyndi, that the shoe’s on the other foot particularly with risk aversion. I think that for me I keep coming back and this is where I’m contradicting myself. Matthew Worwood: Do we begin to start moving towards a certain part of the continuum? The spectrum as we get older with more information with more knowledge? Because ultimately what I feel is I feel a lot of young people that I come up. Big, bold ideas, and sometimes those big, bold, I, they want to get going take students in digital media and design at UConn. Matthew Worwood: A lot of them come into a class and you can see their mindset is, I’ve got everything. All I need to do is someone to tell me which buttons to push, and I’m gonna make the next, multi-billion dollar app because the idea is so big. But as you gather more and more knowledge about the world and you have more understanding of the context to where your problem exists, you recognize it becomes really important to gather as much information as you can before you run off. Matthew Worwood: So that’s where I’m wondering, do we, as we get older, do we actually find ourselves maybe moving a little bit towards one end of this spectrum when compared to others? And it might be that there’s not research out there, but I’m just curious. Cheri Sterman: From my experience, there is many seasoned, older, free thinkers as they are logical, and there are many young logicals. Cheri Sterman: So I have not seen the pattern of experience and age pulling you to one side or the other. Cyndi Burnett: What about you, Gerard? What do you think? Gerard Puccio: I think this is, that opportunity in this tool would be interesting to see, especially within a school context. The students and the teachers have a dialogue about this and to use this tool. Gerard Puccio: To Matt, to your point, it could be as we gain more experience and we have more knowledge. So Cyndi, you’re quite familiar with Noller’s formula. Creativity is a function of knowledge, imagination, and evaluation. And there’s a way of thinking that says, as you gain knowledge, sometimes what that does is it squeezes out imagination. Gerard Puccio: So jump into another model and interpreting that what you’re saying use using a different model. It would be interesting in a dialogue, wouldn’t it be wonderful? Again, this tool is designed to create a dialogue. If using this tool, students and teachers could have this conversation. Gerard Puccio: And teachers could. Talk about how their experiences maybe had an impact on their creative process and students perhaps with that wide-eyed everything’s possible perspective. I don’t know whether it’s true or not. It’d be interesting to see using this Crayola Styles tool to see if there are differences. Gerard Puccio: But I think what’s really important is that dialogue. It might allow for what a wonderful interaction that would be between students and teachers to have. Cheri Sterman: I’d love the, I’d love the way you’re ending that conversation, Gerard. I don’t wanna take away from the value of the dialogue, but just I looked up while you were talking and we do have. Cheri Sterman: Eight thou at the point that we had 8,000 participants, I put it in a bar graph and we have as many free thinkers as logical, very low. It’s a classic bell curve, but as there are predicted, it dips in the middle, the middle one. And so we have as many brainstormers as realists, as many organizers, as practical. Cheri Sterman: So I consider 8,000 people’s results pretty telling. Matthew Worwood: Yeah. No I feel like I’m very much put in my place sharing Actually what I was going to say was I’ve got another running theory that I’ve long held which is that academia has challenged me to maybe move a little bit away from being so free flowing. Matthew Worwood: I think I find that very fascinating. But anyone who’s in administration in academia or has had experience in administration with academia might. Might relate a little bit to me, but that’s my other theory, Cheri, is ultimately the environment in order to get things forward. Matthew Worwood: There’s a recognition maybe that, that there are certain preferences that need to take a little bit more of a priority if we are to actually secure a budget or get a course past, et cetera. That was my other running theory, so thank you so much. I need to work on my divergent thinking again. Cyndi Burnett: Thank you so much for joining us today. If you would like to take the Crayola Creative Profile Tool, we will link it in the show notes below and check out the other websites we have on Crayola, as well as the Center for Applied Imagination, where they offer a master of Science degree in creativity and change leadership, as well as an upcoming doctorate. Cyndi Burnett: So congratulations on the doctorate, Gerard Gerard Puccio: Thank you, Cyndi, and thank you, Matt. Thanks for having us on. Cyndi Burnett: And that concludes another episode of the Fueling Creativity and Education Podcast. If you’d like more information on fueling creativity in your classroom, check out our website@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. Cyndi Burnett: My name is Dr. Cyndi Burnett, Matthew Worwood: and my name is Dr. Matthew Worwood Cyndi Burnett: This episode was produced by Cyndi Burnett and Matthew War. Our podcast assistant is Ann Fernando, and our editor is she Ahmed.