Anne Jacoby:
But it’s also pretty remarkable that it’s done in a public setting. And I’ve been reflecting on that too. I think in the workplace we’re so cautious about, oh, any criticism given in private. And for the most part, I agree with that. But there is something pretty powerful about hey, here’s this open forum. We’re going to share all the things that could be improved upon, and it’s just part of the norm. It’s the social norm that we’ve created together.

Matthew Worwood:
Hello, everyone. My name is Doctor Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood:
This is the fueling Creativity in Education podcast.

Cyndi Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.

Matthew Worwood:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood:
So let’s begin. Welcome to another episode of the fuelling creativity in Education podcast. And this is going to be a great episode if you are interested in conversations around effective feedback for your students, particularly when it comes to promoting creative thinking in your classroom environment, because we have a special guest for you today who’s going to be talking about exactly that.

Cyndi Burnett:
So today we welcome to the show Ann Jacoby, who is the founder of the culture consultancy Spring street, dedicated to cultivating creativity at work through cultural assessments, workplace strategy, leadership programs, and coaching. Ann partners with leaders who crave more connection, innovation, and inclusion across their teams. By combining her early career experiences as a performer, an MBA from NYU Stern School of Business, and 20 years in corporate life, Ann sparks creativity in teams to find more joy and drive business results. Ann is an advocate for early arts education and proudly served on the board of her alma mater, the Los Angeles County High School for the Arts. Her bestselling book, Born to create, features artists, business leaders, and entrepreneurs and was a number one new release on Amazon. She is a repeat guest lecturer at leading universities across the globe. Welcome to the show, Ann.

Anne Jacoby:
It is so great to be here. Cindy and Matt, thank you for having me. What funeral?

Cyndi Burnett:
And I just want to mention to our readers that we like to bring in people who work in industry so beyond education to find out what’s happening in the corporate world in real life situations where creativity is used so we can think about how we might integrate these kinds of skills and abilities with our students for future work. So with that, we’d like to start a little bit with your educational path and what experiences fostered your own creativity.

Anne Jacoby:
Yeah, it’s such a good place to start because I’ve been reflecting on this and really thinking about the amazing teachers I’ve had throughout my educational path, from my early days and just public education, you know, grammar school, elementary school, and then when I went to middle school, I actually went to a small private school in San Diego Valley in California. So more of an outdoorsy school. We called the teachers by their first names, and I went there because my mom was a teacher there. She taught me algebra. But it was an incredibly hands on experience. Lots of outdoor activities. We had electives like basket weaving and woodworking and, you know, things that I normally wouldn’t gravitate towards, perhaps, but, gosh, what an immersive experience and a way of just connecting with the material in a very different way. So that was a really important part of my education.

Anne Jacoby:
And then I ended up going to the La county high School for the Arts, which we had to audition for. It’s the number one public arts education high school in the nation, has been for years. And I kind of moved from this kind of remote area in the middle of nowhere, wine country area to urban Los Angeles on Cal State La campus. And that contrast was stark, but so meaningful to be kind of parachuted into other kids who were working on their craft. Mind blowing.

Matthew Worwood:
And, you know, your focus is around creative confidence. So I’m curious to know, what part of the journey did au feel contributed to your own creative confidence? And when did you start seeing creative confidence as a tool or vehicle to which you could improve the professional spaces to which you work?

Anne Jacoby:
You know, creative confidence is something, I think it’s a lifelong skill that we develop. Creatives, I think, are inherently, we’re vulnerable creatures, right? If you create something in the world, it’s a vulnerable act. It can feel really nerve wracking to put your ideas or your creative work out into the world. Whether you’re seven years old or 70 years old, you can still have those nerves. And so I think it’s something you develop over time. You can certainly put yourselves in environments where you feel safe to create. Whether you’re in a school environment, whether you’re working with teams in the work industry, there are different environments that will support you in that journey and kind of boost your creative confidence. So I think we can seek out those spaces, but I think about kind of later in my educational experience, you know, fast forward.

Anne Jacoby:
I ended up going to Northwestern and got my MBA at Stern. And in that time, in my mid ish twenties, you know, I think I was kind of hiding the fact that I was a creator. I was trying to conform into this, oh, I’m a grown up business person, and, you know, I’m going to hide that more artsy background of mine, but I really discovered that it’s a superpower. And when you tap into your creativity, when you bring it to spaces that are traditional or conventionally not creative, and we’ll talk about that later, a lot can happen. You can kind of own it and create new things together in new ways. So I think that was a process that I had to discover for myself and probably a lifelong process building up that confidence.

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Anne, I love in your book born to create, which I loved the book, but what I really appreciated about it, in difference with other books I’ve read on creativity, especially for the corporate world, is how you integrated your experiences in the arts, and especially musical theater, with the work that you do with the rest of the world in corporations, let’s say, for them. And one of the things that you brought up that really struck me, and I actually used it yesterday afternoon, was this idea of note giving. And when you’re a director, you give notes to your actors, and you take those notes and they’re minor modifications, and you improve on those. And it was really powerful for me because I do remember my days in musical theater, where I would listen very intently to my director and hope of a few notes, but not too many, and take down those notes and go and work to be better. I think I was in a situation yesterday where someone was giving me feedback, and at first I felt very defensive, which is, it’s very easy to go into defense mode when someone’s giving us notes in whatever capacity they might look. And I think we have to be careful in building our creative confidence that we don’t take every note that people give us. Right. And we have to consider the source.

Cyndi Burnett:
But if we really just look at it as this is a note that we might want to use to improve our abilities that day, then that can really be powerful. And when I shifted it to this person that was talking to me wasn’t giving me criticism, they were giving me notes on how to live my life a little bit better, I suddenly felt more confident about myself and my ability to take that note and improve and not just feel defensive. So that’s just something I wanted to mention because I absolutely love that aspect of your book.

Anne Jacoby:
Yeah. Thank you, Cindy. And it’s a powerful thing to think about because it’s a cultural in the theater, right. It’s expected. And so it doesn’t catch you off guard because you’re kind of expecting, hey, my director might have notes for me, and I gotta listen up. But it’s also pretty remarkable that it’s done in a public setting. You know, I’ve been reflecting on that, too. I think in the workplace, we’re so cautious about, oh, any criticism given in private.

Anne Jacoby:
And for the most part, I agree with that. But there is something pretty powerful about, hey, here’s this open forum. We’re going to share all the things that could be improved upon. And it’s just part of the norm. It’s the social norm that we’ve created together. And if we’re lucky, we’re not defensive. We take the note. Maybe you get a little pushback and everyone just says, just take the note and move on.

Anne Jacoby:
And I love, Cindy, your clarification. Hey, consider the source, right? We don’t want to be so wounded every time someone gives us feedback, like, oh, I’m such an imperfect person. If the note doesn’t land, then okay, you know, try it out and then discard what doesn’t work for you. And I think there’s something pretty liberating about that process.

Matthew Worwood:
I want to keep this conversation going because I think it’s really fascinating. And obviously, Anne, I think some of the things that you’ve shared, particularly about, you know, your education centers a lot around the arts. And so I’m going to kind of bring it back to this art environment which Cindy and I have spoken about more recently in season eight. But I also want to share my personal experience. As you referenced, Cindy, I was an actor for a while. You know, Cindy knows I don’t often like to kind of, like, talk about that and reference that. But one of the things that I will say that I found fascinating and was highly uncomfortable with, but then got really comfortable with was the notes you would receive. When you’ve kind of done that dress rehearsal, you know, you’re nearing that performance.

Matthew Worwood:
You’ve got to that point where you brought the character to life, and then you have these kind of like dry runs or these dress rehearsals where it’s kind of like, I want you to imagine, and this is it. This is the show. And really at that point, you’re hoping all the lighting’s going well or there’s no issues with the blocking. And so it really does now just come down to these little subtle tweaks, typically tweaks for the individual actor to think about whether. How they enter the stage, how they deliver a line where they’re looking when their line is received. And we would literally just have to stand there, and the director would provide feedback at the end of the show. One of the directors had a strategy where they would place each individual actor on the stage. So talking about the fact that it’s.

Matthew Worwood:
You’re sharing notes in a public setting, you’d have one actor on the stage, and they would pull out this huge booklet with all of pages of notes that they’ve got just for you, and you would have to stand still and just take it. And it wouldn’t just be about the show. It would be about your attitude in rehearsals, just everything about you. So this was more, you know, an example in drama school. But you get to a point where you kind of do just start translating that feedback as notes to take into the next production, and you kind of get trained, right? You get trained in that. And that’s my interaction with the arts. But I think most artists or traditional art schools probably can connect to an environment within education where they’ve showcased their work, typically in a public setting, such as a studio class, anywhere between maybe five people and 15 people, and their work has been presented to the class, and they have received notes either from the teacher or notes from the students, facilitated by the teacher. And during that process, that critique is such a critical part of any fine arts program.

Matthew Worwood:
And I’m just sitting here wondering in this conversation whether a, there’s any other discipline to which you kind of get notes delivered in that way, and b, I’m just wondering about whether that provides. You reference creativity as a superpower, but whether there is some sub superpower of being creative. Is that capacity to just see feedbacks as a note that you take into the next iteration. That was a lot of information I shared because I was, you know, sharing my personal experience. But it’s certainly something that I’ve been thinking in general about this concept of critique within the arts that not other disciplines get.

Anne Jacoby:
Yeah, I think that’s right. And, you know, even coming from a dance class yesterday, I was thinking, gosh, you know, the teacher will say, oh, push your hip down or, you know, lift your leg higher here. It’s so immediate. And I think we get to the workplace, and all of a sudden feedback is this really big deal. And we save it for the end of the year, and the stakes get higher, and we feel disconnected to the actual work that we did because there’s this gap in the time that we actually do the work and the time that we receive the notes. And so I think in the arts, it’s so immediate. There’s something kind of visceral about the co creation of this work product that you’re building together. And, you know, the notes that you get, whether it’s from your.

Anne Jacoby:
Your classmates or your teacher or the director, there’s an immediate feedback loop that’s being created, and then you immediately implement it. And I think that’s a beautiful part of the creative process.

Cyndi Burnett:
So let’s bring this into the classroom, because I think this is something I’m already playing in my head with. What would this look like in a classroom? I’m thinking back to a teacher, and his name was Brian Steele, one of my son’s teachers, who was a science teacher, middle school science teacher. And he was constantly giving the students feedback. And it was like every day they submitted something, he gave them feedback, and it turned around. And my son, I think it was my son’s favorite teacher of all time because he said he just. The expectations are clear. They’re high, but they’re clear. He gives me feedback, and I know what I need to do the next day to improve on that.

Cyndi Burnett:
And I think that’s a big thing to carry as an educator. Like, I’m going to constantly be giving feedback, so I’m just playing in my head. I’m curious from the both of you, what might that look like for most educators? How could we create a culture of giving notes and it being an open thing where people don’t feel like they’re being vulnerable and attacked in any way or feeling, like, let down because I didn’t do my best?

Anne Jacoby:
Yeah, I mean, I think about. So I have two kids. They’re wrapping up fourth grade and first grade, and my fourth grader has this exercise, it’s called fluency, where they read a passage and they need to practice the diction and the volume and the expression. It’s very theatrical, if you think about it. And they do some peer feedback review. And what I like about that process is they’re putting themselves out there. They’re inviting, they’re kind of readying their brain. Right.

Anne Jacoby:
It’s brain friendly because they’re seeking out the feedback, expecting that feedback from a peer. But it’s extremely specific around either tone or expression or volume. And then they improve upon it throughout the week. It’s kind of building throughout the week. So I like that as a creative process and as a mechanism to work the feedback loop. I’ll also, you know, I think about some of the notes that I got from my AP english teacher, Lois Hunter, who was at the high school for the Arts. She’s now the chair of the theater program at Laksa. And when I would write a piece or write an essay, her notes were specific.

Anne Jacoby:
It wasn’t just good job. It wasn’t just a grade. There were actual comments about whatever. I was developing the narrative. You know, nice visual here. You know, I think about the specificity of feedback and how important that is for any student or artist to develop their craft. That specificity is really powerful. I don’t know.

Anne Jacoby:
Matt, what do you think?

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, well, I think there’s a couple of things. I think Cindy referenced culture, which is extremely important. Now, Cindy was referencing feedback from the teacher, and you referenced feedback on the teacher, but you also referenced peer feedback. And within the research, we know that feedback is one of the most effective ways to improve learning in the classroom. And there are good ways to administer feedback, and there are less effective ways, shall I say, of delivering feedback. And to your point, a grade saying something’s good, right. Doesn’t actually allow us to take that note and move it to the next iteration. And one of the things that I have a real concern about is that aspects of our education culture has kind of got in this situation.

Matthew Worwood:
I sometimes refer to it as a transactional relationship where I provide you with work and you give me a letter grade in response to that work. And I’m looking at kind of like submitting something that gets anywhere between a b and that’s good. I passed the class, so I move on to the next stage in my education career. And I think that’s where we’re kind of really focused on this concept of proficiency at the moment. You know, how do we measure proficiency and make sure actual people are proficient before they move forward? But in order to be proficient, again, you need that feedback. So I think culture is critical, and I feel like there’s aspects of the education system that has a very bad culture around feedback, both what the students expect, and, of course, they’ve come to expect it because of what we’ve been doing as teachers. Just to put it out there. I know that delivering good feedback takes time.

Matthew Worwood:
It can take time. It can be hard work. So I want to put that out there, that there are factors probably in play here that you might have teachers that really want to deliver good feedback, but they just don’t have the capacity to do that. But, of course, that, again, is a challenge within the system. Yeah.

Cyndi Burnett:
Cindy, I also want to go back to the specific feedback that Ann mentioned. Because not only specific feedback, I think when you are looking at things that are critical, but things that you like that they’re doing. So I really like the way that you had strong intonation that you were very expressive when you said this line, because the more specific we can get with the pluses as well can be beneficial. And to address the time, I know I had a conversation with Katie Trowbridge from curiosity to create, who is the sponsor of our podcast, and she said, you don’t have to grade everything. So what if teachers, and this is a question for our teachers listening, what if teachers spent less time giving feedback on everything and focused in on specific assignments to give more thorough feedback and invested their time on giving really good feedback to specific assignments?

Matthew Worwood:
So I think there’s conversations around summative and formative assessments, right. I think it comes down to your objective. What are you choosing to measure? I think it is helpful to try and have some form of feedback, sometimes at the end of every lesson, sometimes at the end of every day. I think maybe in that example, it’s whether or not you have to grade every worksheet that comes in, or do you have to grade every paper that’s submitted? That’s where I think there’s different strategies, because I think, Cindy, that idea of being very specific, you might be able to facilitate feedback within peers that can actually be very specific. So if you are focusing on writing, for example, you might want to go and focus in a little bit on visual writing and ask your students to say, right. All I want you to do when you grade this paper of your peer is to highlight all of the imagery that you saw within this piece of writing. And then you can then provide the students to say, right, as you know, we’re focusing on imagery, and I’m hoping that everyone’s got lots of imagery. It looks like you didn’t have a lot of feedback around imagery, so how might you improve that paper? So it includes more imagery.

Matthew Worwood:
So that might assist teachers, obviously, in providing more specific feedback, a strategy. But going back to what you said, I think that. I agree. It comes down to what your objective is, and if your objective is to kind of deliver feedback, to move the. Or shall we say, I like this idea of passing notes, passing notes to assist learning. I think there’s lots of ways of doing it, and I don’t think you necessarily have to provide notes to every single activity that students do. I think that. I think that is something to think about.

Matthew Worwood:
Do you want to bring more creative and critical thinking into your school. Look no further than our podcast sponsor, curiosity to create.

Cyndi Burnett:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

Matthew Worwood:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode. So, Anne, I want to get back to your book, born to create. You have a lot of creativity boosters in your book, so I wondered if you share with us one of your boosters with Matt and I. Yeah.

Anne Jacoby:
Thank you, Cindy. So these boosters are really meant to shift the energy. And I think a lot of times we’re so laser focused on productivity. Right. I gotta be as productive as possible. I gotta work, work, work. And we don’t leave the space to imagine or daydream or reflect. Just pause during our day, which can really be the creative life force that keeps us going, that keeps us curious and inventive.

Anne Jacoby:
So these boosters are designed to kind of break us out of our routine, shift the energy a little bit. And then one that I want to do today is working with Clay. I love tactile materials, Lego Clay. So you’ve got your play doh, and if you would create something for each other, perhaps, or someone on your team that represents an award that you would give them, maybe they have a quality that you admire. Maybe there is some achievement that they’ve reached this year that you want to just mark the moment for. So that’s just kind of a playful creativity booster that gets us out of our head, gets us working with a new material, and it’s kind of a fun social experiment as well. Give it a little bit of time.

Matthew Worwood:
Yeah, I’m making mine now. I think I stole some clay from my youngest. He’s going to get very upset. He hasn’t got a lot left. Gonna do two, Cindy, I got two ideas, and I don’t have enough time to. To choose.

Anne Jacoby:
All right, who’s going to share?

Cyndi Burnett:
Go ahead, Matt.

Matthew Worwood:
I said I’ve got two. So I’ll give you my first. You can give me yours, and then I’ll. So, Cindy, these are some wings, and these are wings for your book that you’ve just published. And I want to put the wings on your book and so they can fly away all around the world and land at everyone who could benefit from a wonderful book around infusing creative thinking into the higher education classroom. So these are a set of wings. And what’s great is, because we’re doing audio, nobody can see. So just, you know, these are really good wings.

Matthew Worwood:
I mean, they look amazing. Like, some people are. Like, why? Why is he not a sculptor? That’s how good these wings are.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, thank you, Matt. So, for Matt, I created this. It looks like a snowman, but actually, it’s three circles, and they represent health and wellness and family and professional work. And Matt works really hard to keep a balanced life. And as you can see, they’re not perfect. Oop. I just dropped.

Matthew Worwood:
That shows how hard it is to keep that balanced life. Right.

Cyndi Burnett:
It’s very hard because he is really trying to manage, like, all of it, and I. He does extremely well at balancing it, and that’s why I created the sculpture, because it’s a balancing act, and it’s not an easy one for anyone to. To try to maintain all those things at equal space. But I think he does an exceptional job in holding it together. And sometimes there’s cracks, sometimes there’s mistakes. And I think he recognizes those mistakes, and those mistakes help him stay more cohesive together.

Anne Jacoby:
That is so cool. I just want to pause and acknowledge both of you for just diving in and doing it. I mean, I learned so much about both of you through that process. So what a fun little activity for your staff or any kind of team. I think it’s a really fun booster. So there you go.

Cyndi Burnett:
Loved it.

Matthew Worwood:
I actually agree. I never thought about it from that perspective, being able to learn about your colleagues, there’s probably different modifications that you can make on there. But, I mean, Cindy, that was really creative, by the way. I mean, coming up with that in. In a few minutes, that was brilliant. So not only you engage in those creative thinking skills, but you’re also making closer connections to people and connections that have, obviously, a lot more depth to who they are, and then you can kind of think about how that might translate in a school environment. So I think that’s a wonderful activity for our teachers to think about.

Anne Jacoby:
Absolutely.

Matthew Worwood:
So, Anne, first of all, thank you for that activity, because Cindy and I have actually been saying that we really enjoy our interviews when we get to do an activity on the show. So, as you know, as we shared with you at the very beginning, we finish all of our episodes, asking our guests to share three tips that could promote creativity in the classroom. So what are your three tips?

Anne Jacoby:
I think number one tip, ditch the worksheets. And I know worksheets are kind of the go to. It’s the safety net. It’s easy to keep the students busy. But, gosh, if you want creativity, worksheets probably aren’t going to be your, your best conduit to creativity. Number two, I’d say really focus on curiosity. And I think curiosity is kind of the gateway to creativity. You can get a student curious about a subject and ask really good questions.

Anne Jacoby:
I think that is kind of the open art. That’s how we start thinking about, oh, this connection and this connection and this connects how, and it’s stoking that curiosity for a starter. And then the third one, I’d say, is personalize for passion. So, you know, I think about my own educational journey and how personalized it was having an assignment and having my teacher say, okay, you can write a little scene about this history moment, or you can personify what it was like to live in those times and maybe write a letter, or maybe you’re creating a song or a dance around it, or maybe you’re building, you know, a mission.

Matthew Worwood:
Right.

Anne Jacoby:
My daughter’s. And, and studying the missions here in California. So different modalities, different ways to engage with the learning in a personalized way, so powerful. And it kind of taps into that autonomy as well, which we know leads to good things. Those are the tips.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, Anne, thank you so much for being a guest on our show today. We really enjoyed our conversation. And for those of you listening, if you’re interested, take a look at the book born to create. You can find it on all of your bookstores and local bookstores. I highly recommend it. And if you are a teacher and you’ve been thinking about feedback, we’d love to hear from you and share this episode with one of your colleagues and have a conversation with them about what you might do to build and cultivate a culture of giving notes and feedback in a positive and specific way to your students. My name is Doctor Cindy Burnett, and.

Matthew Worwood:
My name is Doctor Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
This episode was produced by Matthew Worwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create, and our editor is Sam Atkinson.