Lola Schnapp [00:00:00]:
So if we want to become innovative cultures or societies, then we need to have creative individuals that move and are the engine that spark that movement.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:12]:
Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:15]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:17]:
This is the fueling creativity and Education podcast.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:21]:
On this show, we’ll be talking about creativity topics and how they apply the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:26]:
We’ll be speaking with scholars, educators and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and digging deeper into new and varying perspectives of creativity, all with the.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:37]:
Goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers and parents with knowledge they can use at home or in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:45]:
So let’s begin.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:47]:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcasts. And on this episode, we welcome Lola Schnapp, who is a creativity and education advocate, especially for the hispanic community. Her passion is to share the power of creativity as an engine for change and growth in education. She finds creativity to be the missing link in education since it helps to achieve great work by having fun and being motivated. She is the coauthor of 20 Lessons to weave creative Thinking into your curriculum, available in English and Spanish. And I should note that her co author colleague is my cohost, Cindy Burnett. She has worked as a primary school teacher and technology integration specialist, coaching teachers to integrate technology and new methodologies into their classrooms. Currently, she works in Chile, helping to transform schools into innovative communities and cultures through consultancy and training.

Matthew Worwood [00:01:41]:
Lola, welcome to the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast.

Lola Schnapp [00:01:44]:
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Matthew Worwood [00:01:47]:
So, Lola, you talk about us having to be deliberate about creativity in education. Could you explain what you mean by being deliberate about creativity in education?

Lola Schnapp [00:01:56]:
Well, being deliberate means having the option, I mean, making the decision to help students develop their creativity, so being intentional about it. So, for example, on 20 lessons, the book that we wrote, we provide certain skills and specific steps to do so. That is a deliberate way of fostering creativity. So not just hoping it happens just because we are creative, then people will be creative. It needs to be intentional.

Matthew Worwood [00:02:30]:
And that obviously relates to how you see schools transforming into innovation cultures that foster creativity.

Lola Schnapp [00:02:37]:
Of course, creativity for me is the so this is my definition about innovation. Innovation is the successful implementation of a creative solution. So you can have a creative solution, but you never implement it. Or you try to implement it, but you’re not successful with it. So then there’s no innovation. So I believe creativity is the engine that moves innovation. So in order to transform schools into innovative cultures, then we need to be deliberate about creativity. Since it is what starts the innovation process.

Lola Schnapp [00:03:15]:
Without creativity, we don’t have innovation. So if we want to become innovative cultures or societies, then we need to have creative individuals that move and are the engine that spark that movement.

Matthew Worwood [00:03:29]:
And so this transition from ideas becoming solutions that lead to change in a community is really what you’re focused on, and it’s creative individuals within the building that produce those innovative outcomes.

Lola Schnapp [00:03:44]:
Yes. And then creativity is not only what ignites the first ideas or sparks the first creative solutions. Creativity is also going to help you move through the change process, which is painful at many times. There’s a lot of resistance, fallbacks. Entrepreneurs, I’m sure they know this. You move ten steps forward, but then 20 step behind, and that is going to happen. If you’re able to have a creative attitude towards change, you can thrive. If you’re able to experience fun, playfulness, being open, being able to prototype, not become in love with your ideas, but test them and actually find out if they are being useful and they are actually solving the problem.

Lola Schnapp [00:04:35]:
And if you go through all of those processes, if you have a creative attitude, then you’re able to surf the wave instead of being. When there’s a wave and you get.

Matthew Worwood [00:04:47]:
All, oh, I love it. I love it. Because what I’m envisioning, and I referenced this in a film I made, like, new technology, for example, was like a tidal wave that kind of really disrupt and crush through everyone’s classrooms. Right. And what you’re saying is that creativity, being creative and applying these creative thinking skills is a way to which you can ride that wave, ride that wave successfully, maybe do some kind of flips and twists and turns on the surfboard. Yeah. And enjoy it. And enjoy it.

Lola Schnapp [00:05:20]:
And you can see, like, with COVID you could really see teachers. Some teachers were thriving and they were enjoying and learning to use the green screen and edit learning capsules, creating different games for the students and how they might make students learn or help them learn something at a distance. But then you saw so many other teachers suffering and struggling and becoming stressed. A lot of teachers decided to quit their jobs because it was too much stress for them. So the only thing that we know for sure is that change is constant and change is happening. The only thing that is going to change is, like, how fast it’s going to be. Sometimes it’s very fast, sometimes it’s very slow. This change in education has been, I don’t know, for the past, I would say 20 years, maybe more.

Lola Schnapp [00:06:12]:
We know that systems were not working. But then COVID came and made us see that a lot of our current systems in education are not working.

Cyndi Burnett [00:06:22]:
So you’ve mentioned creativity can help manage change. It can make learning more fun, it can make students more motivated. And I know, Lola, you do a lot of coaching with teachers. So when you go in and you watch a teacher and you’re watching the teacher just give a standard sort of lesson lecture, and the students are looking very glazed over in boredom, what do you recommend? How do you get them started in bringing creativity into their lessons?

Lola Schnapp [00:06:50]:
The first thing would be just to try it. Embrace the challenge, tolerate some ambiguity, ambiguity, and take a chance, because the rewards are going to be massive. So once students get engaged in creative endeavors and they accept themselves as creative beings, and instead of telling them, no, this is not the time to be creative, you’re telling them, bring on your creativity, full potential. You can see how students start to shine. I’ve been saying this for a while, that when we deliberately foster creativity, creativity has so many positive side effects. When we develop creativity with students, then we’re also helping them develop tolerance, resilience, embrace challenges and see how they can achieve all these other different things. So I will tell teachers, take the chance and try to do it. One of the easiest way to do it is I’ve learned too, is playfulness and humor.

Lola Schnapp [00:08:02]:
So when you add that to your classroom, just put some music, play a game, start with a joke, or just start your lesson with a meme. And from that you can build on something that creates our brain. It’s wired in a way that if we experience playfulness and humor, we become more open. We are open to the experience of learning. Our guard becomes down and we’re open to that experience. So it’s a very good way to start. So take a chance and include some playfulness and humor. And also you need to model this.

Lola Schnapp [00:08:46]:
So if you are not willing as a teacher to put yourself in uncomfortable positions, you can never expect students to become uncomfortable. So if you are not willing to collaborate with other teachers, you can never expect your students to collaborate. If you are not willing to be creative and put your creative in service of your students, then you can never expect students to also put their creativity in service. So you need to embody that, that you want to see in students.

Matthew Worwood [00:09:19]:
Now, later on in the show, we’re going to get a little bit more into the work that you’ve done with Cindy around specific creative thinking skills, and you’re referencing some of those creative thinking skills in that response. But before we get into that, I was wondering if we could kind of just talk a little bit more about technology, because you referenced technology as one of the tools to which you bring in the classroom. So could you talk a little bit about what you see as a relationship between maybe digital technology and being able to promote creativity in the classroom environment?

Lola Schnapp [00:09:54]:
I think technology is like one of the biggest allies of creative development for different reasons. First, if we go to the web, everything is there. So whatever you want to learn, you can find it somewhere. There is a tutorial for anything. I don’t know which is the random tutorial I found, but I found it. So there’s anything for everyone. If you want to learn, you can find it there. So it’s actually exciting as teachers to have that, because now I can focus not on teaching content because students can find that online.

Lola Schnapp [00:10:35]:
I’m more into challenging them to finding relations, to what do they think about and what can they build from that. So use the knowledge to create value. So that is one thing. The other thing is creativity also provides a lot of tools for creating different sorts of content. And students right now, they are really stuck to their screens. So if you’re giving them possibilities to create content and become part of that, what they are wired to, you’re actually helping them become not consumers, but producers and creators. So they are able to create that. Not only digital technology, I would say also maker spaces and helping them build.

Lola Schnapp [00:11:24]:
So not only digital, so maybe programming and robots and building woodwork and whatever, it gives a sense of accomplishment. So when you’re able to build something with your own hands, so you can watch the tutorial on how might I build a bookshelf? And then actually create it, you’re giving those students the experience to be self sufficient for themselves. Last year I had an experience. We were doing a design thinking project. So 8th graders were helping solve problems for pre K classes. So they talk with the teachers and they talk with the students. And one of the solutions that they came up with was a bookshelf. So they built bookshelves with wheels.

Lola Schnapp [00:12:14]:
And I remember one of the 8th graders being very surprised, like, I can’t believe this, I built a shelf. And she was so excited about achieving that, so she asked. They came with teachers to make the sketch of what the bookshelf might look like, the dimensions, where should it fit, and everything. It wasn’t the best bookshelf because of course it was the first time they built a bookshelf, but they were able to do that. And the sense of accomplishment was so big, there’s no test for that. When you’re there, and that kind of spark shines through. So technology helps do that. Not only digital technology, but all of the maker space movement as well.

Matthew Worwood [00:13:09]:
I love those responses. And we had an episode with Carrington Fork and we spoke a lot about this idea of producing, as well as consuming information and content. And I think it is so important, number one, from just having a better understanding of content and the impact it has in our lives, if we can get a better understanding of how to produce it. And I think digital technology is certainly making it easier and easier for everyday people and students in the classroom to go about producing information, producing content to which they can then share and distribute. But I also like that the first thing that you shared in response to that question I asked, because you’re talking about how we can utilize the information that exists on the World wide web as part of the creative process. And I’m thinking about a project that I’m currently working on, and I’ve kind of had it in my head, kind of like, I kind of think I know what I want to do. I don’t quite know what this thing’s called. I’m not even sure if I can get this material.

Matthew Worwood [00:14:06]:
But by going online, I’ve got better and better as I’ve kind of gone through this process. I’m getting better at the words that I’m putting into the search engine, and I’m now starting to generate examples, to see examples of what it is that either I want to create or what I might create. And now, through my interaction with the browser and online information, I now think I’ve got a really good idea of what I want to do for this project. So I think just utilizing the World wide Web as we incubate ideas is a resource that we probably don’t talk enough about, but it is a very important tool. So thank you so much for sharing that.

Lola Schnapp [00:14:44]:
Yeah, it’s, for example, like, if you use Pinterest and make students, we think about Pinterest as just more related to cooking and that you’re just saving some recipes or whatever, but if we actually shift it into, you are building your own idea gallery for things, you’re becoming more divergent. Divergency is not only something that happens when we are going to do a brainstorming session. Okay, let’s use our divergent thinking. We should be divergent in general. So when we’re doing our research or state of the art research, we should also be divergent there. And tools like Pinterest might help do that.

Matthew Worwood [00:15:27]:
And actually, Pinterest was where I found the idea it was Pinterest, where I couldn’t find what I was trying to do anywhere. But it was actually when I did the Google images, the images that I found that were close to it was on Pinterest, so totally agree with that.

Cyndi Burnett [00:15:41]:
It also reminds me of a blog that one of my former students also wrote called copying for creativity. And she talked about how she would teach her students how to make something by copying what someone else did. And at first, I thought, why would we want people copying? She made this wonderful case that when you copy what someone else did, it gives you the tools on how to sort of create it. And then when you go to do it again, you have the confidence because you’ve built it, but then you have the confidence to make it your own. So if you have the student who has made a bookshelf has copied all the instructions, well, maybe next time she could add another layer to it, or she could position it in a different way. So it’s interesting, when you think about copying, you normally wouldn’t want students to copy, but if you think about sort of like, feel like an artist by Austin Cleon, which the whole premise of that opening of that book was take what other people are doing and run with it and then make it your own. So I don’t think we talk enough about that in the classroom, is giving students that opportunity to create and then to copy what other people are doing.

Lola Schnapp [00:16:50]:
And then there’s the idea of craftsmanship. I think Glavano talks about this in creativity, that there’s also, when you go and you see artisans, villages, and you see the craftsmanship that they have, that is something we also need to develop with students, which is related to prototyping and having all the different experience, something that you cannot learn, just like in one session from another. And here’s the thing. You need to watch how they’re doing it, the different techniques, because it’s from that where you’re going to use that and apply it somewhere else. So I believe that all of these experiences are part of our mini C creativity. So we need to provide students with all of these experiences to develop this mini C as much as they can. Because when that happens is when they are going to be able to go eventually across industries using what I learned here, to use it there, we would say across subject areas while we’re in school. But then when they’re older, we need to help them.

Lola Schnapp [00:18:02]:
Okay, this that you learned from this craftsmanship here, maybe you can use it in this science. I don’t know, when you’re older and you create a new vaccine, maybe there’s something here that you might learn there, and we need to develop that.

Cyndi Burnett [00:18:16]:
Lola, you’re spot on. It was vlad Glavino that wrote that. And in fact, he talked about it in our interview with him in season one, that creativity can be looked at from three different perspectives. Creativity as improving on things, creativity as expression, and creativity as craftsmanship. And he wrote a journal article on that. So I remember asking him because I thought it was really interesting. So thanks for bringing that up.

Matthew Worwood [00:18:40]:
In keeping with the glavano theme and bringing this sociocultural theory, we spent a lot on the show talking about the environment, talking about people, talking about audience, which are all part of the five a framework. But we haven’t really spent a lot of time talking about the concept of affordances. But technology is an affordance to which we have in the classroom. And if you take something as simple as Google Drive or even Google dogs, for example, that is a tool most educators have. How we perceive that as a tool in our classroom environment, how we use that as a tool in our classroom environment, speaks to our creativity and also speaks to the larger concept of sociocultural theories. So I think everything you’ve shared reminds us how important it is to also think about the affordances that exist in our environment, such as technology tools, to think about how we’re utilizing it, to your point, to kind of nurture minisery creativity, going online, making new discoveries, but then also beginning to apply knowledge to go and create things and perhaps, dare I say, get closer to little C as we start to produce artifacts that can be shared and distributed outside the four walls of the classroom.

Lola Schnapp [00:19:54]:
I agree, because sometimes what happens with technology is we get very excited, oh, I really find this app and it’s very cool. So I’m going to use it. But why are you going to use it for? What are you going to use it for? So it’s not the technology itself, it’s what’s behind it. And that is what we teachers need to, because maybe it’s very cool, but it’s going to be difficult for students. We don’t have the bandwidth to really use it. We don’t have the time, whatever. But we’re so focused on the technology, not on the learning, that it’s not going to be as cool as we thought it was going to be the first time we saw it. So it happened to me, actually, right now I’m working with one school, and I created this very cool digital portfolio that you have a master copy and then all of the students have a copy of that, but they are linked, so you can just keep on adding to that digital portfolio.

Lola Schnapp [00:20:46]:
Students just push refresh and then everything that you put on the masters gets into their portfolio. But the school was not ready and it was not ready for different reasons. They didn’t have the bandwidth, so they were working with portfolios, but Internet was not working because it was Google Slides. Students didn’t have also know they forgot to push refresh. Teachers also forgot to remind them to do that. So it actually didn’t work. So we need to know our audience. We need to know our students.

Lola Schnapp [00:21:23]:
We need to know our teachers. So as administrators or consultancy or whatever, we need to creativity also, and that’s what I was saying, innovation really needs to be innovation, and creativity needs to be authentic for whoever it’s intended to. So it doesn’t really work if you want to do this, if it’s not going to work for that audience, it’s not going to work for those students, for those teachers. It’s not authentic for that territory. It’s very different what a rural area school is going to need and what’s going to be important for them and what is going to be authentic for a more. And even in different cities, what they need. There are some areas that have water shortages, so if you do water projects with them, it’s going to be massive. But there are other areas that really don’t see, like, they know there’s water scarcity somewhere else, but it’s not real to them.

Lola Schnapp [00:22:23]:
So why are we going to address those issues? Maybe they have a more important issue with cyberbullying or other things that in other areas they don’t even. Because they don’t really have good Internet access. So it’s not even an issue. They don’t have cell phones, or cell phones don’t really work. So it’s really important to understand the context when you’re trying to foster critical. It needs to be authentic.

Matthew Worwood [00:22:49]:
So, Lola, you coming on the show is giving me an opportunity to talk about the book that you and Cindy have worked on and published. And it’s called 20 Lessons to weave creative thinking into the curriculum. I kind of, like, want to ask you to tell us a little bit more about the book, but I also am very sensitive to the fact that we haven’t given an opportunity for Cindy to talk about the book as well. So perhaps, Loli, you could tell us a little bit about the book, and then it’s kind of weird, but I feel like I’m also kind of asking the question to you as well, Cindy. So you’re kind of like transitioned into the guest. Now.

Lola Schnapp [00:23:23]:
The process of the was, I remember being a student at the master’s program, and I wanted to do an independent study. I remember I talked about weaving creativity, first book, which I read before going into the program. And I think that was great for me. But there are a lot of teachers that really need a step by, but because they need some. Know what we were talking just now, Matthew, when you said copy something, Cindy was saying, like, the teacher said, copy something, and then you can add to that. And I believe that what 20 lessons degree creative thinking into your curriculum helps do that. Teachers could copy that lesson, and then when they feel comfortable and they know how it works, they can build on that and do something different and be more authentic to their students. So once we were at Cindy’s office sitting on their beanbags, and she said, let’s write a book.

Lola Schnapp [00:24:23]:
So I remember that day. So we started writing this book long time ago, and it was almost done, but then COVID came and we said our teachers really prepared to a new book right now. So then we pushed the break a little bit, just so teachers were more open to when it came out. And now it’s out, and it’s out in English and Spanish, which is also very important for me because I feel there’s so much information for English speaking teachers, not as much information for spanish teachers and educators. So this is an excellent resource for them. And I really hope to produce more in the future to help teachers acknowledge their own creativity, that they are creative beings and they can put their creativity to service to their students and connect to their purpose in teaching. Have fun. After COVID, teachers are not having that much fun, and I think we need to connect with that.

Lola Schnapp [00:25:26]:
And I really hope this helps teachers connect with that.

Cyndi Burnett [00:25:30]:
So for me, when I launched weaving creativity into every strand of your curriculum, which focuses on 20 skills, most of them came from Epaul Torrance’s work, who is known as the father of creativity and education. Teachers said, I love this book and do you have a script? And I was like, I can’t make a script for know, take these ideas and let them spark. And I trust you and you’re going to do wonderful. And they said, it would still be great if you had some sort of script. And so when I was reading Lola’s stuff, I said, what if we use the Torrance incubation model for creative teaching and learning as a model to help teachers bring these creative thinking skills into any lesson, but we give them a framework for each skill and we give them a lesson for each skill that they could integrate. So teachers are loving it, and I think it’s really giving them a better understanding of the possibilities and what might be done for authentic learning purposes in the classroom. And so we’ve been getting great feedback. But again, it came out in COVID when a lot of teachers were struggling to pull things together to go online.

Cyndi Burnett [00:26:38]:
So it was a little bit of.

Matthew Worwood [00:26:39]:
A stressful launch listening to your responses, and it goes back to what you said. In fact, the first question that we explored, Lola, in the episode, was this idea of deliberate creativity. And with this book, really, it’s a script. To your point, Cindy, it’s a script that teachers can take and then deliberately identify a creative thinking skill and then deliberately integrate it into their classroom. So if you’re a social studies teacher and you’re working on a social science class or you’re an elementary school teacher who’s maybe kind of like going through a math sheet, there is an opportunity for you to utilize this as a resource. Identify a creative thinking skill that you think you can deliberately integrate into this lesson. And the goal would be for students to get better at that particular skill, and therefore you’re actually promoting and facilitating creative thinking and creative learning as a consequence of that. Is that kind of like an okay summary?

Lola Schnapp [00:27:33]:
An excellent summary, but I would also add this also helps make learning stick better because you’re creating a different way of students interacting with that specific content. So it makes it more memorable. So if you’re really using a game to study for a quiz or a test, that it’s something that happens regularly, it’s going to become more memorable. So also our brain connects. So it’s wired with motion. So if students are having fun, it’s going to be wired stronger in our brains. So it’s also going to make that experience more memorable. Also, they’re going to identify a specific creativity skill that they were developing, so it serves both purposes.

Matthew Worwood [00:28:19]:
And that’s the Tim piece as well. And I’ve been a student in Cindy’s classes, and Susan Keller math is at Buffalo State. And you do you kind of remember those lessons as a consequence of them? I think applying the Tim model and all these fun activities that kind of weaved into those learning experiences, it makes it extra special when you go away and you feel like you’ve had a wonderful learning experience. It’s very untypical of what we normally associate with a classroom environment.

Lola Schnapp [00:28:51]:
And I think there’s a lot here that you need to just trust the process. Sometimes when people read it, it doesn’t really appeal to some people that are much more scientifically based. Maybe, I don’t know. I’m very scientifically based as well. But people really need certain structures and so I think this brings some structure into that, but just apply it and learn from it. So we also put in the book, like a process, like how to get started with Tim. And it’s not just doing the session, it’s do the session, talk with colleagues, share your experience, see what you could do better next time, and do it again. So it’s not just do it once, because students also need to get used to it, also train their brains to learn differently.

Lola Schnapp [00:29:43]:
They’ve been learning in a certain way for so many years that you cannot expect. Maybe the first lesson is not going to work as it’s scripted in the book because students might not behave or they might not engage. Maybe the topic that you chose was not the best topic in that moment, but you need to try it again. And you need to create a culture of learning with your peers as well. So learn from your students what went right, what could be done better, and try it again.

Matthew Worwood [00:30:13]:
Well, I’d like to thank you, Lola, for coming on the show. It’s been insightful. I think anytime we have an opportunity to kind of talk about theoretical concepts and has they’re applied in the classroom is just excellent. Cindy and I absolutely love that. But we do have to wrap it up and we wrap up every show by asking our guests to provide three tips that teachers can use to encourage facilitate creativity in the classroom.

Lola Schnapp [00:30:39]:
Okay, so the first tip is you need to see yourself as a creative person. You are creative and you need to put that creativity to service to your students. And that is going to help you connect with your purpose, to have fun being a teacher. So the second one would be that, have fun, enjoy it. What you’re doing is a vital work, but we cannot be too serious about it. So if we’re not able to cover all of that curriculum or all of that standards, whatever, as long as students are engaging with learning, it’s good teaching and it’s going to be good learning if it’s been memorable. And don’t do it alone. You can try for a while, but you’re not never going to be able to stick with it for a long time if you’re doing it by yourself.

Lola Schnapp [00:31:29]:
So you need to find your kinder spirit or your creative tribe to test things and try things out and have each other’s back. I need to, I don’t know, shade my whole classroom in five minutes before students come in because I’m going to do a space unit and we’re launching it. So you need to have people that are going to help you to come up with those crazy things.

Cyndi Burnett [00:31:51]:
Thank you so much, Lula, for joining us today. And if you’re interested in looking at our 20 lessons book, take a look at the link in her bio because we will include a link to the first two chapters of the book that you can download for free. This concludes this episode of the feeling, creativity and education podcast. If you like this episode, please leave us a comment on your favorite podcasting platform. If you have any questions, you can reach out to us at. Questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:32:23]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:32:25]:
This podcast was produced by creativity and education and in partnership with dadsforcreativity.com. Our editor is Sina Isade.