Will Richardson:
We kind of have that throwaway line when we think about indigenous cultures. Oh, seven generations. Right. We can’t imagine seven generations. And yet much of the decision making that indigenous cultures used was based on what are going to be the implications. Not on my kids or grandkids or great kids, but seven generations down the road. And not that they could predict that necessarily, right? But they thought about it.

Cyndi Burnett:
Hello, everyone. My name is Doctor Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Doctor Cindy Burnett.

Cyndi Burnett:
This is the Fueling Cream in Education podcast.

Cyndi Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Cyndi Burnett:
So let’s begin.

Cyndi Burnett:
What are the big questions about education and the future that are most important right now? If you’re interested in this topic, join us for today’s special guest who will talk about future trends in education and reimagining the future of education.

Cyndi Burnett:
Yes, because today, we welcome to our show Will Richardson, a former public school educator of 22 years. Will has spent the last 18 years developing an international reputation as a leading thinker and writer about the intersection of social online learning networks, education, and systematic change. Most recently, Will co founded the Big Questions Institute, which was created to help educators use fearless inquiry to make sense of this complex moment and an uncertain future. Welcome to the show, Will.

Will Richardson:
Thanks so much for having me.

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Will, tell us a little bit more about your initial work as an educator and what took you toward founding or co founding the Bigquestions Institute?

Will Richardson:
Yeah, it’s been actually a really interesting journey. Now, looking back on it, not one that I would have ever predicted. I was a high school English teacher basically for the first 18 years of my career, and then right around the turn of the century, that’s how old I am now. But I started using social Internet technologies in my classrooms, right? So my kids were probably one of the first, if not the first, classroom in the world to start using a blog, an individual blog. They were writing regularly to the public. They were interviewing authors. And so my immersion into that technology space, not just that, but wikis and other tools that were emerging at that point. I became an administrator at my school to help supervise technology, and I did that for four years.

Will Richardson:
But then I wrote a book that was really successful. It was called blogs wikis podcasts and other powerful web tools for classrooms. It was a mouthful, and I was just being asked to speak and consult. And so I left that job, and that’s what I’ve been doing for the last 18 years. That for the first half of those 18 years, I was pretty technology centered and going to a lot of schools and working with them on how to just how to think a little bit differently about their practice based on the technologies that were available. But then the last probably half of those 18 years, and certainly in the last five years, most of my work has become about helping educators contextualize what’s happening in the world right now, not just in a technology sense, but in a lot of the other emerging challenges and opportunities that we’re facing right now and to try to really build capacity for change in ways that are relevant for the moment and for the future. So that’s the short version.

Cyndi Burnett:
So that’s where we’d love to start, is the emerging trends. And full disclosure, will, I’ve been following you on LinkedIn for, I think, years and have always been impressed with the questions you posed on LinkedIn. And so I’m really curious, when you sit down with an educator in 2024, what are the emerging trends that you discuss with them and what surprises them?

Will Richardson:
I actually did a school opening day just yesterday, and so I had 300 teachers in the room for an hour and 15 minutes or so, and I can’t not get serious with them about the world as it stands today. But then it’s always important to bring people back into a place where they can think about opportunities and they can think about innovations. I don’t think there’s any denying that we’re in a very interesting moment in history. My partner at the big Questions Institute home at Tabangar, and I refer to it a lot as a liminal moment, this kind of in between moment. A lot of people are writing about this. These kinds of eras in history are not new. There have always been these kind of change moments that have happened, but we happen to be in one right now that is, I think, pretty profound and far reaching. Amy Webb, who does this amazing presentation, probably the most anticipated presentation at south by Southwest every year, did her session this year.

Will Richardson:
And she said, we are all generation transition right now. We are moving from a time when the technologies and the ways that we feel like the world operates, the institutions that we have, the systems that we kind of live within, are all beginning to really become less relevant, and their foundations are shaking a little bit. I think we see this pretty obviously when we look at politics, when we look at media, certainly when we look at the ways in which we are using up the environment, you know, a lot of our current practices are simply unsustainable. Right. So, and we’re feeling it in education too. There’s no question about that. Right. And so the bigger question becomes then, so, all right, so what do we do now? If we are moving away from a way of life and a way of living on the planet that really doesn’t feel like it’s working very well any longer, and yet we don’t know what those new institutions, those new systems, those new practices are going to be.

Will Richardson:
Right. And that’s this very uncomfortable Homa always refers to it as like being the butterfly in the cocoon, right? Where it’s like you’re trying to figure out or you’re trying to get to a point where you can fly away, but we’re in the middle of it right now. So anyway, obviously that’s a huge conversation to have, right? And it’s a very heady one and it’s not one that lends itself to what do I do tomorrow? Because it’s just a lot. So what I try to do is go in and just begin these types of conversations. And our big questions ebook has been a real good tool for schools to use in terms of trying to figure out, okay, so in this moment, who are we? Right, are we okay, what is really, really important to us right now? What are the most important things that we don’t want to sacrifice as we think about moving forward? Where’s the power here? Who owns the ability to make decisions about what the future looks like? What is our legacy going to be anyway? We have twelve of them. We started out with nine. We have twelve coming up. It’s just trying to get a different conversation started and to begin to really help people build their own understanding of what’s happening and build their capacity then to sit with that discomfort that comes with this moment, make the best decisions they can for their kids and themselves moving forward rather than basing their decisions on a world that increasingly doesn’t exist any longer.

Cyndi Burnett:
I just want to follow up on that because some of those are really big questions and I’m sitting here thinking, depending on what perspective you assume in that moment is probably going to change your answer. And I want to go back as you’re having these conversations and actually interacting in this experience to think about how, because you had referenced that in essence you’re at the dawn of the transition of digital technology sometimes referred to as the third industrial revolution, which I know sometimes. Now we’re talking about the fourth industrial revolution, which is building on that technological change we saw in the latter part of the 20th century. Because I certainly, I know when I’ve been trying to grapple with artificial intelligence, I’m trying to say, right, how might I learn from how education and how I responded to things like the World Wide Web emerging with AI? It’s different. But is there opportunities for me to make connections, maybe to reduce the ambiguity a little bit and reduce the discomfort, what relationships can be made? So I’m just curious, what are some of the similarities that you see in this moment to previous disruptive times that you’ve experienced in your career? And then also, what are some of the differences that you see that we’re experiencing now that perhaps we just haven’t experienced something that we can really leverage to learn from?

Will Richardson:
Yeah, I think it’s a great question. Certainly the web was a huge disruption. Social media has become even more of a disruption. And I think we’re feeling that disruption acutely here in the states right now, right in the political season that we’re in the World economic forum. And their assessment of risks over the next two years, and then they have a ten year list, too, but then we’re next. I think it’s two or three years, says misinformation, and disinformation is the number one risk we face right now. So it’s right in our face. The ways in which our ability to communicate, to create, to publish all that has had.

Will Richardson:
I think as someone who was very inspired at the beginning of this 25 years ago when it first started, and thinking this was going to make the world a better place, it’s really been a rocky road, and it hasn’t ended up like that. In many ways, here we are at the precipice of AI, and I can’t help but wonder, I if 1015 years down the road we’re going to have somewhat of the same buyer’s remorse that we’ve had about social media. And I think a lot of it is because we are not good as human beings any longer for a variety of reasons, but we’re not good at pushing our imagination into the future longer term, and really trying to think about what the longer term implications are of the technologies that we created. Right. I think a lot of people are trying to do that with AI, but let’s face it, AI is going to make a lot of companies a lot of money, and that most of the decisions about what we do with AI right now, whether it’s an education or whatever else, is fueled by how much money it’s going to make. And ultimately, that’s not the best thing to make your decisions on. So I see similarities there. I have worries that this kind of, a lot of people are very positive about AI and thinking about all the ways that it can impact the world.

Will Richardson:
And I’m sure there will be some good impact, but I’m sure there are going to be other unintended consequences that we’re not thinking very hard about right now. And to be honest with you, I think that that’s a lot of what has put us in the challenges that we have in many other ways in the world right now. I think that a lot of the, the environmental challenges that we have, a lot of the health challenges that we have are the unintended consequences of the solutions that we have tried to employ to the problems that we face. Right. And you can see that over and over and over again. My phone especially is a great example of that. It’s like when the iPhone, when the smartphone first came out, everyone’s like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. This is great.

Will Richardson:
And now we have addictions issues with this, and we have environmental challenges with this in terms of mining all the elements that are needed to put this together. So, anyway, again, I’m rambling a little bit, but long story short, I think that this is kind of the pattern that we see over and over again now. And it’s a really hard pattern to break because we have become so intent on simply looking right in the moment at the impacts and not into the future as to what the impacts might be. And one of the things I mention all the time is we kind of have that throwaway line when we think about indigenous cultures. Oh, seven generations. Right. We can’t imagine seven generations. And yet much of the decision making that indigenous cultures used was based on what are going to be the implications.

Will Richardson:
Not on my kids or grandkids or great kids, but seven generations down the road. And not that they could predict that necessarily, right. But they thought about it. It was something that they actually sat down and had conversations about and said, well, you know, if we do this over here, seven generations from now, this forest or this place or whatever else may be vastly different from if we do this over here. Right. We don’t do that. We don’t do that at all. We don’t think about the longer term consequences.

Will Richardson:
And I don’t want to say that we’re not able to, but it’s been kind of trained out of us in a lot of ways, and I think it’s a muscle that has just atrophied in the collective idea of humanity that is very, very challenging to overcome. So I don’t know if that answered your question, but there are patterns here, certainly, and whether or not we learn from them, I think is the other question.

Cyndi Burnett:
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Cyndi Burnett:
Curiosity to create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

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Cyndi Burnett:
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org, comma, or check out the links in the show notes for this episode. Will, in your survey to us, you mentioned irresistible futures. So you just brought up thinking about, you know, seven generations from now. So what do you consider irresistible futures and why do you think they’re so important?

Will Richardson:
Well, look, I think that, first of all, there’s a lot of research that shows that if we collectively imagine a future that we want to live in, not only does it inspire us to work toward that, it also builds a collective connection. You know, I mean, it helps us come together and to have an aspiration that we want to work toward is a really good thing. But I will say again, the schools that I work with, very few of them, if any of them have really thought about, well, who do you want to be in 2050? It’s like they go, what? It’s like, well, if you have an aspirational future, because I don’t think I’ve come to a school, maybe one or two, but where people haven’t been frustrated by their current circumstances. Right. No one really thinks that what we’re doing in schools is the best that we can do. And everybody, if you said you have a magic wand, you can build anything you want. They wouldn’t build what they’re working in right now. No one would build the schools that we have right now if we really were oriented toward learning, toward health, toward regeneration, toward all of those things that we need.

Will Richardson:
So anyway, if you can get together and think about the future and you can imagine a place that you yearn for and that yearning is a really important part of it, you have to really want to be in that future. Not only is that hopeful at a time when hope is kind of not easy, but it also then gives you a design proposition. It says to you, well, if that’s where you want to be in 2050, what do you need to do? How do you backwards design from that? What do you need to do tomorrow to move you closer to that decision? Where do you need to be in 2030? Where do you need to be in 2040? So it does give you a framework then to make decisions based on who you want to become, instead of a lot of three and five year strategic plans that take people in this direction for three years, and then all of a sudden, they go on a dumb direction for three years, and then they go backwards for three years. There’s no coherence in that, and there’s no connection to a future that is different from what we currently have in schools and in our lives. And so it just makes it much more difficult. And this is really hard for schools to do. Some of the schools that we’re working with, we’re trying to get them into this fairly regular framework or headspace of imagining their futures. And then, if they can do it, to actually make those futures tangible.

Will Richardson:
And this is where it gets kind of interesting and fun, right? We’re working with a couple of schools who are brave enough to write some oral futures, right? We have oral histories where we look backwards and we tell the stories of the past. But if we do some oral futures and we tell stories from 2050, stories are an amazing, amazingly powerful way to make change happen. If we can use AI now to make, like, pictures, illustrations of 2050 in our school and the things that are happening there, and we put those up on the walls and people see those things and they are reminded of, oh, yeah, that’s where we’re going. We’re going there. I mean, it’s a very, very interesting dynamic that I think is really important on some level. And if we’re not imagining our future, if we don’t see a place where we want to get to, then it just makes it very, very difficult to kind of push back or to deal with the challenges that we’re facing right now. And by the way, it’s not hopium. I love that word that just, you know, I’ve heard that the first time a few months ago.

Will Richardson:
Right. It’s not just hope. Hope, yeah, I hope. I hope. No, it’s really. I want that future. I don’t just hope for that future. I really want that future.

Will Richardson:
And I’ll work for it.

Cyndi Burnett:
First of all, I think the interesting thing about saying 2050 is my first reaction is, oh, that’s so far away. But when I think 25 years ago was 2000, it’s really not that far away.

Will Richardson:
I know kids born today are going to graduate in, what, 2047 or something like that, right? So, yeah, it’s not that far away at all.

Cyndi Burnett:
No, it’s not that far away. Now, we’ve had a really interesting conversation on the podcast based on a paper that I wrote probably ten years ago, which was called do we need a revolution in education or do we need an evolution in education? So do we need to overhaul everything or do we just need to make modifications to what we’re currently doing? Now, originally when I wrote the paper, it was about we need an evolution. But now I’m feeling much more with the onset of AI that we need a revolution. So I’m curious, your own perspective on this and how teachers react, because typically teachers don’t like change. So if we look at the standard deviation, teachers sort of shy away from change. So if we’re really looking at a revolution, how do teachers respond to that? But I’m really curious, your perspective, as well as the teachers you’ve been working with, how they respond to change and do you think they would want a revolution or an evolution?

Will Richardson:
Change is really hard for anyone, and it’s especially hard in education because we’re dealing with children and parents don’t want change. You know, if it’s going to impact the path, the narrative that they have in their heads about what success looks like about, you know, all of that. So that’s number one. And the way that I try to help kind of get around that is to say nothing’s going to change tomorrow, but we’re going to have very different conversations, and we have ten years to do this right, which I think is realistic. If you’re going to revolutionize a school, it’s going to take at least ten years, and it’s going to take a whole bunch of other things, too. It’s going to take leadership that stays around. It’s going to take a culture that’s built on trust. We could check off all the boxes that I think most people know would be required for that.

Will Richardson:
But what I really think is interesting, though, is that the revolution is already happening. The difference is it’s being built, it’s not being changed. There are not a lot of schools that have the capacity or have the, the commitment to go through ten years where they land in a very, very different place. So what’s really interesting is that there are just a lot of people now who are opting out of that and going and starting schools and building schools. And there are some really, really interesting schools and school models that are out there right now. Some very interesting conversations in the non traditional spaces that I think over the next decade or so may scale into not only some different choices for people to make, but also may become models then for traditional schools to try to adopt and to try to maybe if someone else creates it and kind of shows how it can be, quote unquote, successful, again, depending on how you define that. Yeah. But I do want to make one other point, though.

Will Richardson:
Right. And that is, I agree with you. I don’t think schools can evolve. And I think the reason is primarily, and this is something that we don’t admit, but we all know schools were not built for learning. Schools were built for schooling, and we do things in schools that are directly antithetical to the way that humans learn. No one in their right mind, if they had, again, had the opportunity to build it again, and if they really cared about how human beings learn, especially young human beings, no one would segregate by age. No one would basically segregate out by discipline. No one would make 50 minutes blocks and make kids sit in rows and give them 22 minutes for lunch.

Will Richardson:
You know what I’m saying? Right. It’s just what we do in schools. If we are objective about it and can stand back and look at it, we cannot make the argument that most of it is conducive to creating a real learning environment, which requires passion, which requires real world work, which requires time, which. You know what I’m saying? Right. And the thing is, and this is probably the most interesting moment of my presentations, is I will ask people, what are the conditions for deep and powerful learning? And everybody, every time always says, passion, real world, timeless feedback and agency and all those things. Everybody knows it. And then I’ll show a list of what people never say, ever say. And people never say, put them in rows.

Will Richardson:
Make it about grades, make it about college. Nobody ever says. So. It’s like, we know every one of us knows what it takes to create conditions for people to learn really deeply, and yet we live in a world of education that creates very few, if any, of those conditions and instead puts kids into these spaces where, as you, I don’t know if you saw the Gallup report that came out last week, two in ten of them, shockingly, only two in ten of them find themselves engaged in school. So you can’t evolve that. It’s so hard because the narratives are so deep and everybody expects that. I really only think you can build for it, and I do think that that’s what’s happening right now. And I think the next ten years are going to be really interesting in the education space.

Cyndi Burnett:
Just to follow up, when you say it’s being built now, how, what really.

Will Richardson:
Small schools that are based on regenerative practices that are out in the environment somewhere. Micro schools, where you have small community, really small community based schools. And that’s not to say that what they do, what many people do in micro schools, isn’t kind of a traditional curriculum type of thing, but I just still think it’s a different model. It’s a different way of thinking about the whole idea of getting kids together. Right. You have all sorts of very inquiry based experiences now, and also a mixture of real world experience and kind of classroom experience. I think the big picture schools, if you haven’t heard of them, are these kind of just brilliant combinations of having kids go out and work and learn in the real world and then come in for a day, maybe or two days, and then learn about the questions that they have, you know, pursue that with adults, with other children, whatever else. So there are so many different variations on the theme right now.

Will Richardson:
And that’s what makes it really, really frustrating when you see these conversations that are happening in other, all over the world still about, wow, we need to raise test scores. So we’re going to go back to explicit instruction with the teacher standing in front of the room just talking to kids. Right? I mean, it’s insane. That’s schooling. That’s not learning. That’s getting really good at school. It’s not creating spaces where kids learn really deeply.

Cyndi Burnett:
So I did want to throw out there on the following up on the change thing, and the reason why I’m kind of skipping over a little bit of the things you shared is I suspect it will come up in our debrief will, because this is cindy reference revolution versus an evolution conversation does continue to keep coming up, and I continue to wrestle with it, and I listen to both sides of. Of the perspective, and I’m not sure I’ve really finalized my thoughts on it yet, but the change piece, I’d add that I don’t think students like to change either. If you’re an educator and you try and mix things up in your classroom environment, and yet a good example is you take online learning experiences and you suddenly don’t use the online forum and you suddenly decide that you want to host a discussion in a different way. Students don’t immediately like that, because whether it’s a schooling experience or a learning experience, they’re accustomed to this. So too much of a disruption to that experience, I think be overwhelming for them as well.

Will Richardson:
Can I. Can I say, can I ask, whose fault is that?

Cyndi Burnett:
You know, that’s a good question. It certainly could be us. Is there a human piece to this as well? I don’t know.

Will Richardson:
I think it’s definitely us, to be honest with you. I think that because of the kind of mechanisms and the expectations that we have in school right now, we have to train our kids very well, to listen to the teacher, to be on time, to all that kind of stuff. And so kids learn. I think that my kid, I will speak for my children. The thing they learned most in school was how to be successful at school. And so when you have lots of kids who are trying to figure out what the rules are in terms of how to be successful in school, when you change something, they all go, whoa, no, no, no, no. You can’t change that, because now you are making it more difficult for me to understand how to be successful in school. And that’s why they don’t like it either.

Will Richardson:
Most kids get it. They get it down. They’re good at doing school. But if you ask them again at the end of the day, after they’ve graduated, go to a kid a year after the graduation, have them take the test again. They’ve forgotten most of what was on that test. The things that they’ve learned deeply were about how to socialize with their friends, how to make sense of whatever’s in front of them. But the curriculum stuff that we try to teach them in school is quickly forgotten. If kids don’t have an attachment to it, if it’s not real to their lives, they’ll do school.

Will Richardson:
And that’s what my kids did. They did school really well, right? But they didn’t learn a lot. And by the way, same for college. My son went to Colgate University. He’s a basketball player here, and it’s where I am right now. And I asked him, by the way, Colgate is $82,000 a year now. I asked him when he graduated, I said, so how much did you learn in your classes? And he goes, some stuff, but not a lot. He just kind of went.

Will Richardson:
And it was interesting in the moment, but it didn’t have a huge impact on who he is now. I’m not saying that all schooling and all that experience is bad or that we shouldn’t bring kids and adults together on a regular basis to learn. That’s not what I’m saying. But I am saying that in its current iteration, I’m not shocked that two out of ten kids are engaged in school. I’m not shocked that they don’t want change, because what they’re there for is to do school, not necessarily to learn. Kids will leave school and then go learn. And that’s the other thing, too. Coming out of COVID everyone said, oh, learning loss, learning loss, learning loss.

Will Richardson:
And I was like, no one stopped learning during COVID No one, not a single person stopped learning during COVID There was schooling loss. They got behind in whatever the school expected them to be at their reading level or at their math level or whatever else. And we can have a debate on whether or not that’s even something that should change or whatever. But the point is we have to stop thinking that schooling equals learning. It doesn’t. And so unless we can separate those two things and really step back objectively and start to think about, well, how do we make this thing, this experience, more about learning than schooling, then a revolution is required. It’s not going to be an evolution.

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, will, I have to say, my mind is spinning with many more questions and comments, but our time is just about up. So I’m thinking about those educators who are listening to this episode, and their minds are also spinning and reeling and thinking, okay, so what do I need to do now? So we ask every guest that comes onto our show, what three tips would you give to educators? So for those teachers who are listening right now, what would you recommend that they start to think about or question or ask to help them move this forward or to do something with all those things that are stirring in their minds?

Will Richardson:
Well, I mean, I think the first thing is just to step back and really think about how you learn. What’s required for you to learn those things that you have learned most powerfully and deeply in your life? Why? Why did those things happen to be the ones? And when you are learning what’s happening in that moment, and then really try to have some empathy for what kids are experiencing in school and ask yourself, do those two things match? Do they have any overlap? And if not, then take what you know about your own learning, because we are all experts in human learning. We are all learners. Take what you know about your own learning and try to use that as a lens for the conditions you create in your classroom. So that would be number one, right? That’s the thing you can do tomorrow, just step back and do some observation and say, is this happening or not? And then the second one, I think, would be just imagine, get into the future more, you know, on a regular basis. Just. Just really think about what’s the future that you want to live in, what’s the future that you want to teach in the. And maybe try to find some folks who will go there with you and just play in that space a little bit.

Will Richardson:
I think we have to be as serious as the future presents itself right now. I think we have to be really a little playful and creative, obviously creative about what the future could become if we really all got together and said, yeah, that’s what we want. I think one of the problems we have right now is that there is no kind of shared vision for the world that we want, and certainly not on a more local level for the schools that we want. So I think spending time doing that would be great. And then I think the third thing is just really talk to kids and make sure that kids are at every discussion about kids. One of the things that’s most frustrating for me in schools, and I can’t believe how hard it is actually to get people to. To do this. But, you know, when I go in and I work with leadership teams or when I do a.

Will Richardson:
For opening day convocation or whatever, no students are there. And I want to always ask, well, why is that? Why? We’re talking about their experience. This isn’t about us. It’s about them. We’re not here if they’re not here. Right. So kids should be at every conversation about kids, every single one of them, unless there’s, you know, some legal issues or whatever, but, you know, board meetings and staff meetings and opening days and whatever else, and we should be talking to kids constantly about, well, what are you experiencing right now? How’s this going for you? What would you do differently? How would you want to do this, that type of thing? I don’t think we give kids enough credit. I don’t think we honor their own intelligence and creativity enough.

Will Richardson:
And the more that we can really understand what they’re experiencing, I think we can learn a lot about what experience we create for them because that is what we do as much as, that’s why we’re there. We’re there to create this experience of education, schooling, whatever. How do we do that if we don’t really know what’s happening to the kids that are in front of us?

Cyndi Burnett:
Well, thank you so much. As I said, I’m sure Cindy and I will come back and revisit a bunch of the topics that you brought up in today’s episode. There’s certainly a lot to think about and we and we wish you all the best as you continue to go off on your mission to particularly get us to think forward. I really like that concept with the future aurals and if you don’t mind, we’re probably going to steal it and integrate it into one of my courses. So if you are an administrator listening or perhaps looking for some professional development that might potentially facilitate the type of conversations that came up in today’s episode, please forward this to colleagues in your school. And don’t forget, forget to remind them to subscribe to the fuelling creativity in Education podcast. My name is Doctor Matthew Werwood and.

Cyndi Burnett:
My name is Doctor Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by Matthew Worwood and Cindy Burnett. Our podcast sponsor is curiosity to create and our editor is Sam Atkinson.