Francis Valentine [00:00:00]:
I think it’s the people have the ability to know when to use the algorithm and when to turn it off, that actually the creative process is going to require them people to get away from the influence of others, to really get into their own mind and be able to have these creative pursuits.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:17]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:20]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:23]:
This is the fueling creativity in education podcast.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:27]:
On this show, we’ll be talking about creativity topics and how they apply to the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:32]:
We’ll be speaking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and digging deeper into new and varying perspectives of creativity, all with the.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:43]:
Goal to help fuel the more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers and parents with knowledge they can use at home or in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:51]:
So let’s begin.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:53]:
Welcome to another episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast. On today’s show, we welcome Francis Valentine, who is the founder and CEO of the Mind Lab and Tech Futures Lab, which provide learning pathways for educators and professionals to not just participate in, but have a sustainable impact on the technological driven future. Everything Valentine does is about supporting people, businesses and organizations to understand the impact of emerging technologies and the cultural adaptation required to embrace change and build that impact. Frances sets the tone for two organizations, one of lifelong learning, openness, awareness and inclusion. She has a passionate belief that a flexible mind that fosters an ability to learn unlearn and relearn is crucial as new information, improved data, and more advanced science and technology shape our understanding of the world. And of course, we’re super excited to have Francis on the show because Cindy and I have been talking a lot about the future creative, and we’re hoping that we can continue that conversation in today’s show. So, Francis, welcome to the Fueling Creativity podcast.

Francis Valentine [00:02:01]:
It’s great to be here. And actually, as we say in New Zealand, we’d say atomarier or Kyora. Hello from New Zealand.

Matthew Worwood [00:02:08]:
So, Francis, our first know. Before we get into this idea of kind of thinking about skills of the future, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the type of future that we anticipate for our students.

Francis Valentine [00:02:21]:
I think we’ve already seen it the last couple of years where we’re sort of blending real world and the virtual world increasingly. So we’re thinking about how do we communicate when we’re kind of cross platform. It’s almost, for me, we’re moving away from just these physical spaces, and so the world we’re going to live in is going to have elements of us being an avatar, having a sort of our own Persona, individualized, kind of who we are, who we stand to be, what we want to portray to others. And I think that the creative side of that is we’re not going to be the sort of the generalist or the person who is grouped with a lot of other people, sort of like the demographic who does this. I think it’s going to be about the individual and the rights of the individual. And I think compared to when I grew up, I kept thinking about how everybody around me dressed the same. We all aspired to wear the same things and listen to the same music. And I think the future is increasingly personalized.

Francis Valentine [00:03:20]:
It’s broadening into this world where we can be who we want to be, and the creative pursuits will be much more kind of bespoke. And actually, people will start to really have almost like, go down little rabbit holes that just they and others like them love. And it won’t be the same as the next door neighbor or the person who you go to school with.

Cyndi Burnett [00:03:40]:
Oh, that reminds me of our conversation with B. Leaderman, Matt, where we interviewed a teacher, actually, who is an ed tech, and she talks about microphotography of bugs and how she fell into a passion for that, and she was able to find other people in the world who had a similar passion. So I love that piece, that it’s more personalized to who we are and what we love. And I’m curious if you’ve seen any technologies that can really help. In particular, students build on their own strengths and make it more personal as they continue through their educational system.

Francis Valentine [00:04:16]:
Yeah, I think actually students are already doing all of this. I think what is really amazing, and in fact, I’ll use an story. Last week I was in a group of professionals from a large professional service firm, and there was a group of, I guess they were executives. Some had been in the firm for two years out of university, and some had been there for up to five years. So young, these are mostly in their twenty s, and then there’s some official kind of older, the people who are the head of the company. And we were talking about things, and they were sort of saying, what should we do for these young people? And I’m looking at this room of 20 somethings saying, well, they already do what they do. You don’t need to tell them what we should do for them. Ask them.

Francis Valentine [00:04:56]:
They’re in the room with you, like, let’s just turn this around. And it turned out that they started talking about their worlds and these rabbit holes they go into. And some of them were into, one was into archery and one was big into esports, and one was starting with cryptocurrencies, and then suddenly the whole room exploded, like, are you in crypto, too? I’m into crypto. And suddenly it was like 50% of this room of sort of. Particularly the 22, 23 year olds were all like, wow, have you done anything with nfts? And what are you doing in the metaverse? And suddenly these older people in the room are, like, looking at each other, scratching their head and saying, who are these people? And how did they get here? And it was almost like they’re hiding this part of their world that they live in. And when you go to students, and it doesn’t matter if you’re talking k one through twelve or you’re talking about a student in higher education, they’re doing this, we really have to kind of peel back the layer and say, what are you doing in this new world and where do you hang out and who do you hang out with? Because I think the second that we try to imagine what they do, then we’ve lost all credibility. It’s a bit like calling your brand innovative, sort of closed quotations. It isn’t.

Francis Valentine [00:06:05]:
It is what it is. And you can’t make something cool. You can’t make something interesting. It kind of creates that by what it does. And I think this generation coming through, whether they are five years old or 15 years old, it doesn’t really matter. They’re forging this entirely different view of what this world is about. And it looks nothing like the world that I knew growing up or the world that I see when I look out my window, because we live in a bubble, and those bubbles are very real.

Matthew Worwood [00:06:33]:
You’re kind of taking me back to some experiences that I’ve had teaching undergraduate students at the University of Connecticut. And technology has enabled us to have these personalized experiences, but also it’s enabled us to go about and find our own path. So we’re talking about personalization. We could start talking about forging a career path that is just about you and the direction where you want to head, as opposed to you’re going to come to university, you’re going to study for four years, and then after four years, you’re going to take the entry level position at this company. Then you might move to another company, and then you go up another level in your career. And the other piece to add on that is that we have a whole bunch of different platforms. Now, Cindy, you and I use them where we have these kind of freelancers can go and share their services, upworks, fiver, things like, so, you know, I’m building up to a question here, Francis. What’s the role of the educator in these kind of know, personalized careers that are kind of emerging even before students graduate from college or even high meant?

Francis Valentine [00:07:35]:
I’m so pleased you raised that, because I think the idea of a side hustle is such a big thing now. It’s not about taking the job in the retail store on the weekends to get a bit of cash. I’ll give you an example. My oldest son is at university, and his job is, he is a director of esports. And I’m like, what on the earth is a director of esports? So he is employed by one of our largest entertainment groups. He goes into a room through the night because the feeds are coming in from across the world in a room full of screens. And he directs the cameras on the players of esport tournaments where sometimes there’s 60 or 100,000 people watching. And he’s got to get the camera angles just right so people can see how these people are playing with their controllers.

Francis Valentine [00:08:21]:
It’s like insane. But that is literally his side hustle while he studies. And I think there are so many of these creative outlets and you talked about the likes of fiver and things where people can reach out and connect with other people around the world and use their talents. And I think that this is really indicative of this idea of what is education and what’s its purpose, because I think it’s supplementary now. It’s not the beginning and the end. And I remember growing up being told, if you get a job for life and a house and a car, you are good to go. Your life is perfect. And now I look at a generation who are like, a job for life sounds like the most scary, most kind of restrictive thing you could possibly imagine.

Francis Valentine [00:09:07]:
And actually, ideally it would be two jobs at once. And I have this right now with my own team. My youngest team members, by choice, increasingly work a three or a four day week with me, and then they have their side hustle. I mean, one of them is really into motorbikes, and he spends every Wednesday working on his motorbikes and what he does there. Some of them have like a little startup business and they’re working on that. Some of them are doing trading and various cryptocurrencies, or they’re creatives and they’re doing videography, or they’re a wedding celebrant, whatever they might be. Doing on the side and really playing into that. But that’s also increasingly with my senior staff and my executive team wanting a four day working week as well, because they’ve got there of while I’m in this career, I’m starting to kind of hedge my bets to make sure that my next job, my next career, I’m leaning into it, whether it’s more training, whether it’s developing networks, whether it’s creating a portfolio, or whether it is literally a side hustle, trying to see if they could be a bit of a startup and not take the risk of stepping entirely into it.

Francis Valentine [00:10:12]:
And so then it comes back to education. You go, well, what is it for? There is an element of socialization which is totally feasible, pre COVID, but now if you’re learning online, which there’s so many people right now are learning entirely on a call like this, then actually the socialization piece is disappearing. You don’t have the same ability to connect. And so then it really has to be about the benefit of what you’re learning and the context of it, about giving you information you absolutely need for the next job. If it’s not important or it’s irrelevant, or they cannot place the information they’re learning, they’re not going to go. They’ll just say, well, actually, I’ll choose to opt out. And I’m sure that New Zealand is not alone in the world seeing truancy in the compulsory education. The first twelve years is up higher than it’s ever been because I think a lot of young people, particularly in their teenage years, have said, I liked studying from home.

Francis Valentine [00:11:17]:
I liked the idea that I learned the hours I wanted to, and if I wanted to learn and to study at 09:00 at night, I could. And now sort of forcing them back into a classroom between nine and 03:00 p.m. Feels really restrictive. And so we’re really seeing it here. There’s a pushback of people saying, why can’t you be more flexible? Which comes back to the of personalized ways of learning. It’s like, who is the individual and why is the system built? Assuming everybody is the same and they learn the same way and they want to know the same things, but even more importantly, the way that we put everybody into age groups. I think it’s really funny that you put all twelve year olds together and say you should all do the same thing at the same time. And I was thinking, imagine my office.

Francis Valentine [00:12:03]:
I went in and said, okay, everybody who’s 36, line up here, let’s know the same things. So I think we’re starting to understand education plays a role much more than just measuring how key milestones and having a set amount of knowledge. It’s got to be more than that.

Cyndi Burnett [00:12:21]:
I want to touch on the socialization piece you just referenced because you said that socialization doesn’t happen in learning situations like this. But we had a bit of a banter and silliness before we started this call. And I think you can build some socialization and camaraderie and interaction in some of these, especially synchronous learning. It’s a little bit more challenging with asynchronous, but even with asynchronous I think you can build on that. What do you think about that?

Francis Valentine [00:12:50]:
I think if you have the ability to be confident enough to talk and speak out. We joined a call, we don’t know each other, but we’re all here as communicators, so we’re happy to jump into conversation. But if you are an undergrad student and you’re into a call and there’s 70 other people, you’re not likely to be the one to say, hey Joe, I like your dress. And I think just through know two years of having constant meetings online, the problem with that is there is a purpose to every interaction. It’s like we’re starting, we’ve got an agenda, we have to get through this and then we finish. You do miss out on those just general conversations where you can debate a point or you can actually have a really thorough conversation saying what do we think about ethics of such and such? And everybody jumps into the conversation. I think that there is very difficult to facilitate authentic conversation online and it also favors extroverts. So there is an element and then of course the real estate is equal to everybody, but there’s still a hierarchy because you end up with those who are knowledgeable will speak out because they get that and they get literally the front screen.

Francis Valentine [00:14:05]:
If you’re across multiple screens with a large cohort, the person who speaks aloud gets a front screen and they get to see themselves and they go, well look, I’m here. And it just feeds the ego and they keep carrying. You know, I run enough classes to know sometimes I’m always like, ok Joe, that was really interesting, but let’s just hear from someone. You know, I think in a classroom it’s much easier to sort of look across the room and say, hey, I haven’t talked to that person before, or I see you have your hand up, let’s bring you in so I think it’s a remarkable educator who can really facilitate online sessions to be really engaging. Small chats, small groups, I think, are much easier when you’ve less than probably eight people because you’re all in a room together and you can do that. But I think we have to really think about the value of each interaction we have when it is online, because if it’s not about filling the gaps of knowledge or connecting people and making them feel like they’ve got some really benefits from that session or that time that they’re allocating, then I think they will go and look at alternatives. And right now, with the global shortage of great talent, people can actually choose to leave education completely and actually probably walk into a reasonable job and start working inside organizations and work their way up, which is probably more of a previous generational type approach to the workforce.

Matthew Worwood [00:15:33]:
First of all, I want to highlight one word you said, which was this idea of compulsory education. So there’s a system of compulsory education to which we are mandated to participate in, and then there’s this kind of like, almost voluntary educational experience that we get. And I think the side hustle is another word that you use that kind of connects to that. And that side hustle is not only about our personal interests, it’s not only about having some kind of, like, financial benefit to it, but as you referenced just there at the end, through the experience of your side hustle and what you learn on your side hustle, it actually might be more effective in getting you a job 510 years from now. So given the educators who work in the compulsory education system and given the kind of, like, the amount of flexibility and personalization and opportunity that exists outside of that compulsory educational experience, how do we equip teachers to engage, to motivate, and to succeed in teaching students what they need to learn for this future?

Francis Valentine [00:16:44]:
I think it’s two things teachers have been taught for a long time. To be the fountain of all knowledge at the front of the class. And so they become content experts. And even if they’re putting together that class the night before, they have to be the expert in the room. We work with a lot of teachers. We’ve been working with teachers for many years reskilling them. And I’m talking about thousands of teachers. And what we teach them is saying, actually, if you start a class of any age of children and say, okay, say for an example, the topic today is about Saturn as a planet.

Francis Valentine [00:17:19]:
You start with the class saying, what questions do we need to find out the answers for? So you ask the class that, what would you want to know? So we’re not actually starting with a whole bunch of facts, you’re saying. So then around the class, everybody gets a chance to put the questions up and then saying, well, how will we block these groups or group these questions into ones that we can discover inside the classroom? Like, between us, who might know the answer to, who thinks we might need to be able to find a different source? What could that source be? Is it the Internet? Is it the school library? Is it another teacher who perhaps is more of an expert? Is it your parents? And actually having them divide it up and saying, where would this information come from? The creative pursuit of, wow. Yeah, maybe we could go and talk to the local observatory, or we could go and visit them. We could actually find out questions from someone who’s an expert. And someone else might say, well, I’ve seen this great website from NASA, and it has a whole section on Saturn, and someone goes through and then deciding on who wants to find out the answers so that they decide which style of learning they know. It’s one that might go, I really like looking at books, so I’m going to go to the library and find the answer this way. And someone else, well, I know my uncle. He works in the observatory, so can I make a phone call to him overnight? And I’ll come back with you with some answers? So then you’re turning it instead of saying, here’s a whole laundry list of things that you need to know about Saturn.

Francis Valentine [00:18:42]:
Suddenly, everyone, that room is engaged because they’ve written the questions. They’ve decided how they want to find the answers, and then they bring it back into a classroom and share it. And actually what you’ve now got is everybody’s learning is extended because it’s far more than one laundry list, because you’re going to have the question. The weird questions about, can we fly to Saturn? How long would that take? What would we eat? Are there Martians? You’d have the question kids want to know, not just the ones that we think in the prescriptive text. So I think that’s a big part of it, is saying to a teacher, what if you took away that need to lead every conversation and to set that tone and give the creativity back to the kids? The other one I talk about a lot, which is the difference between cooperation and collaboration. And so if you did the same concept, instead of saying to someone in a classroom, okay, kids, tomorrow we’re going to do a shared lunch. Everybody bring a dish for a shared lunch. And everybody goes home, and their mum makes their favorite family dish.

Francis Valentine [00:19:49]:
And it might be a special cultural dish of food, but something they know really well. And they bring it to school, and someone’s got their chowmaine, and somebody’s got their paella, and someone else has got their burritos, and you put it on the table and everyone sits down and eats. But it’s things that everybody already knew because it’s from history, it’s embedded, the stuff they’ve already know. So that, to me, is like a cooperation, a collaboration would be, you say to the kids, okay, everybody has to bring an ingredient tomorrow from home. You choose, you bring in an ingredient. We’ll bring it all into the school. We’ll go into, if the school is home, where they can prep food, and they’ll say, okay, look at these ingredients. What could we make from this? What dishes could we create? And then having some research and conversation, you get the kids sharing up the ingredients, and then they would figure out how they could make different meals out of it.

Francis Valentine [00:20:40]:
Things that they’d never tried before, that they had never sensed. A sense of creativity, a sense of kind of discovery, a sense of doing something with others and working together. And then the experience is really meaningful. So they will remember that a year later and probably ten years later, whereas they won’t remember what they had at the shared lunch. And so we often do things because it’s easy, but actually easy in the context of learning is not necessarily long term in terms of impactful, meaningful, and actually contextualize into what can I do with that information? If you’ve just created a new dish of food, a made up dish, not talking about how it might taste, but actually the idea that you created something that you shared from scratch and that it was something that no one had done before, will stay with you. And it’s a learning process which carries into the future. So we’re very big on this idea of how do you learn in a much more creative way, so that it stays with the individual for longer, but they can apply in other parts of their lives, because that critical thinking and creativity it takes to problem solve comes from those types of experiences, not from. Here’s the textbook.

Francis Valentine [00:21:52]:
And make sure you learn everything on page 39, and we’ll test you on, on Friday. We’re starting to learn those sorts of things about the way we learn and why we learn the way we do.

Cyndi Burnett [00:22:04]:
Fantastic. Well, your example about having students generate questions actually reminds me of our curiosity tip that we did Matt in one of our episodes. So we do a series of creativity tips. And one of them was to have students generate questions instead of answers about a content, and to lead the conversation at the start of class with that. And what I love about that and how you framed it was you’re really teaching students how to think about how they solve problems or how they obtain information. So here’s a question. How do I find the answer to that? And showing them not, here’s what the answer is, here’s where I found it, but where are all the ways we can find it? What kind of answers do we get from the Internet? And how is that different from if we were to look at something in a book, or if we were going to go to someone with that kind of expertise? So I love this mix in that first example you talked about with curiosity and problem solving, and really teaching students how to think and think on their own and independently. And I think that is so much a big part of what creativity actually is.

Cyndi Burnett [00:23:09]:
So the other thing that struck me was when you talked about collaboration, because in season one of our podcast, we spoke with a futurist named Brian Alexander, and he talked about this idea of cobots and collaboration with robots, and how we can create in more effective, interesting, quick ways with robots. And while I immediately think of the Jetsons and Rosie helping me clean, I’m curious how you perceive robots in collaboration and creativity and the work that you do.

Francis Valentine [00:23:43]:
I think it comes back to humans are really good at creativity. They’ve given the ability to be creative, and robots are really good at the things that humans don’t want to do, whether it is cleaning your windows or mowing your lawns, or it is actually know, in a know, Google search is a robot. It just hasn’t got a physical form. It does a function that humans are not good at, which is remembering lots of information and finding it really quickly. So I think cobots, the whole concept of humans working with robots and working with technology that enables us to do the really interesting, creative things and giving the things that we’re not really good at to another. A function of a robot or a data process or an AI, an algorithm is really important, because as we’re going into this time and place in the world, where there’s some really complex challenges, we have to mitigate everything from climate change and what the effects of that to fake news, right the way through how we feel about ourselves when we’ve got social media pressures and all sorts of things. So we have to build a resilience, which I think creativity does really well. It means that if you took a grade five students on a bus trip, on a public bus trip, and you all jumped on with the tickets, and then you went way out of your normal area, and then you got there, and as a teacher, took all the tickets away to get home and said, uhoh, we’ve lost all our tickets.

Francis Valentine [00:25:10]:
We can’t get home. What do we do? Actually putting in a position where someone can be creative and go, well, what are the ways we could get home? The same information you applied in the classroom suddenly goes, well, we could go and talk to someone who could ask us how to do it. We could ask for help with someone who we could phone a friend. We could go and buy some more tickets. Let’s go through the whole process where we have a robot, I think, making decisions for us. We have to make sure that we are not relying entirely. And I think the best example that we can all relate to is Google Maps or equivalent. Whether you use Waze or whatever you might use, people’s ability to navigate cities right now is increasingly reliant on an application.

Francis Valentine [00:25:55]:
So people have lost the ability to say, well, because they’re not taking so much notice, they put an address in. In their car, and off they go and they follow it. And then this very sultry voice telling you to turn left at the next intersection. So I think we have to be mindful about the things that we should keep going creatively, like knowing how to navigate a city and saying, I can go across a city, or even arrive in a new city. And the joy of just walking across a city and discovering is really important part of creative development, because it gets your neurons firing in a very different way. So I think we’ve got to be mindful that cobots, if it is just telling us in Google how to find the local supermarket, that’s useful, because otherwise, you’re going to have to find a long winded way of doing that. But if it takes away our ability to make decisions and actually becomes. Instead of writing a greeting card to your friend, you Google, what can I write in the greeting card? And you copy it off somebody else’s, then actually, we’re doing ourselves a disservice.

Matthew Worwood [00:26:58]:
Before we go to our final question, Francis, there’s just something know, I’m reflecting on the entire know. There’s this almost like this is the conversation we’ve had about Google and how machines, to a certain extent, are taking away our need to make decisions. And then, at the same time, we’ve had this conversations about personalized learning and students going about kind of like just crafting their own futures. So as we think about the future creative, is the future creative actually someone who has developed the capacities and skills to operate outside these algorithms, I. E. That they’ve maybe maintained or developed the capacity to continue to make decisions and pursue opportunities that are meaningful to them.

Francis Valentine [00:27:47]:
I think that’s incredibly insightful. I think it’s the people who have the ability to know when to use the algorithm and when to turn it off that actually the creative process is going to require them people to get away from the influence of others, to really get into their own mind and be able to have these creative pursuits. Because the second we end up delving into others, making decisions, then actually, or we look for a phrase for our greeting card, we are immediately handing it off to someone else. So we’ll lose the ability to do that. I mean, our brain needs to be tuned up regularly like any machine or our bodies. And so if we don’t have the ability to know when to turn off, when to create a recipe from scratch, when to drive without a navigational discussion, to look in a library book without having a Google search, when we can do those things or paint a picture without making a reference to something we’ve already seen, all of those things mean we have to step away from other influences to believe in ourselves. And I think the belief in ourself is one of the key characteristics of any great creative, because they’re saying, I back myself to do it my way. And that is very powerful in its really great way of also addressing anxiety about having to fit in with everybody else, create your own path and really carve that time out.

Cyndi Burnett [00:29:16]:
Well, this has been an incredible conversation, Frances, and I just want to say thank you so much for joining us today. We wrap up every show with three tips that you would recommend to educators to bring creativity into the classroom. So what three tips would you like to provide, Cindy?

Francis Valentine [00:29:33]:
I think the first one is the one we talked about a little bit around. Start with students asking the questions, and if you do that in every new subject area, I think that’s critical, where people can discover information in a very different way that’s much more interactive and much more memorable. The second one is never use a learning opportunity to get students to do the same thing. I’ll give you an example. If I go back to my Saturn example, if there is a chance to say, why don’t we just divide up the solar system and you choose the group you want to be in? Do you want to be in the Jupiter group? The Mars group or you want to be in the Saturn group. Actually, when we come back, we’ll actually share all the learnings we’re going to learn about the entire solar system. And so we’re not going to hear seven different groups talk about exactly the same thing and do their science project on the exact same thing, because actually there’s no extension of learning. It’s just repetition.

Francis Valentine [00:30:30]:
And so there’s been no ability kind of, to really understand what else could be done in the same hours, but actually more students been exposed to new things. And then the third one would be not to be over indexed by your own knowledge. And what I mean by that is just because it was true at a time, in a place or the group that you hang out with, it doesn’t mean that’s representative of the real world or other people’s scenarios. So if you’re a teacher and you spend a lot of time with teachers and your friends are teachers and they’re all similar age, actually, you and yourself become your own algorithm because you’re reinforced the same views again and again. So when you have a class, you typically have more diversity in a class or a cohort of students. And so making sure that you have the questions and saying, what would your family do? And what is your experience? If someone’s come from another country or they’ve got a different culture or a different belief, having a safe space where they can talk about that. So students in the class can go, wow, in our house, we really love dogs in our house because that’s part of our family. Another one’s saying, oh, no, we culturally don’t have dogs in our house, and this is why we don’t have cult.

Francis Valentine [00:31:42]:
I like dogs, but we don’t have them for this reason or because our house is too small. And so your house is big enough to have a dog. Ours is not. And having the space where people start to realize the differences within a group of students, and I think that is of any age student, and I’m using a dog’s story as a really simplistic sort of example, but actually the ability to people to say, just because you think that is the truth, it could be in your scenario, but it’s not necessarily the truth for everyone. And actually really enabling people to share stories, and that in itself creates an ability to create new stories because then you say, well, if that is the case, what else don’t we know? And how else would someone else see?

Cyndi Burnett [00:32:23]:
That concludes this episode of the fueling creativity and Education podcast. If you have any questions or thoughts about this episode or past or future episodes, please reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:32:40]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:32:43]:
This podcast was produced by creativity and education and in partnership with dabsforcreativity.com. Our editor is Sina Isade. It.