Penny Hay [00:00:00]:
Creativity is in everything. It’s not just in art, but what art does is manifest and make visible creativity daily.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:09]:
Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:12]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:14]:
This is the fueling Creativity and Education podcast.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:18]:
On this show, we’ll be talking about creativity topics and how they apply to the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:23]:
We’ll be speaking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and digging deeper into new and varying perspectives of creativity.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:33]:
All with the goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers and parents with knowledge they can use at home or in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:42]:
So let’s begin. Welcome back. It is season six and we have a very special guest with us today, Dr. Penny Hay. Dr. Penny Hay is an artist, educator and researcher reader in creative teaching and learning, senior lecturer in Arts Education, School of Education Research fellow at the center for Cultural and Creative Industries, Bath Spa university, and director of research at the House of Imagination. Her signature projects include school without walls and forest of imagination, which we will hear about today. Penny’s doctoral research focused on children’s learning identity as artists.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:24]:
Welcome to the show, Penny.

Penny Hay [00:01:26]:
Hello. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:29]:
We are so excited to kick off season six in talking to you about your creative journey. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about it?

Penny Hay [00:01:38]:
Well, going back to my kind of mission that everyone is an artist, I trained initially in fine art and education. In my own education, I was literally saved by my art teacher. He drew me in to learning on a metaphorical thread and re engaged me in my learnings through the arts. So that was also my life’s mission. So I trained in fine art at what used to be bath art academy and then merged with Bath College higher education, which is now Bath Spa University where I now teach. So I’m an alum, if that’s the right phrase. So I specialized in the children that were maybe more invisible, that were disaffected or reluctant to come to school, and I reengaged them in their learning through the arts. So although I’m a visual artist and musician, I then became immersed in all of the arts all of the time for all children and young people.

Penny Hay [00:02:42]:
So over several years, initially in the southwest of England and then I moved to Glasgow in 1990 and then back to London in 92, where I was for eight years. I then had this kind of USP, if you like. My absolute passion and motivation was to engage all children, no matter what their background or circumstance, in beautiful learning in and through the arts, but also across the curriculum in the southwest. I would work with primary and special schools to turn them into art. Know every school should be an art school. And then in Glasgow, I co curated an exhibition for children, young people across the city, with the wonderful Ken Baines and Krishpahotska. And then when I was in London, it was a moment of synchronicity. By chance, I’d finished my master’s in art education.

Penny Hay [00:03:41]:
I mean, that’s an interesting point anyway, because I was going to do a master’s in drawing, which is my specialism, but my tutor, who’s still my mentor at the art college, said, no, we need people like you in education. Do a master’s in education. So my master’s in art education. I just finished and I’d just been working in a school in the southwest and I was fully immersed in creative learning all week with all of the children, 400 children, and it was a Friday afternoon, it was about 430 in the afternoon. And the phone rang. In those days, it was plugged into the wall and the headteacher answered it and it was the Institute of Education in London saying, do you know anybody who’s specialist in children and art education? And the headteacher said, yes, she’s sitting on my sofa having a cup of tea. So I then went to London for an interview at the Institute of Education, got the job and quite a rigorous interview. And then I was there for a few years before I moved to Goldsmith.

Penny Hay [00:04:40]:
So I was at Goldsmith for nearly seven years, which was absolutely joyous. I loved working at goldsmiths and with that kind of hat on, not only teaching initial teacher education and the arts, we set up an MA in arts education. In fact, now there’s a centre for arts learning that I’m part of and associate of. But the last two years I was in London, I worked at Tate Modern on the learning policy with the wonderful Toby Jackson, who was head of education interpretation. So I moved back to Bath in 2000 to have my daughter. And then I worked part time for several years before I got the job at Bass Bar University. So in those few years, as she was growing up, I wanted to bring my skills together as an artist, as an educator, as a mentor researcher. So I took a risk and picked up the phone and rang up the director of education and said, I’ve got an idea for a project called five by five.

Penny Hay [00:05:44]:
Or actually, at the time it was three by three. Three schools and three galleries and three artists working together to really think about the cultural creative education landscape. What do you think? Anyway, long story short, so five by five became a long standing charity that we’ve just changed our name to House of imagination in memory of Sir Ken Robinson, who was our patron for 20 years. And I worked with Ken all the way through the 90s in London, and we worked together on the all our Futures report, which I think Kate, his daughter, who’s now our patron, I’ve known for a long time, is really living out Ken’s legacy and the wonderful book imagine if. So Kate finished Ken’s manifesto. So I think that brings me to the current day. I got the job at Tabasfar in 2007, and it’s a wonderful university to work at because it really does value the arts. It really does value creativity.

Penny Hay [00:06:40]:
We make creativity visible together. We’re very committed to the kind of human centric idea of creativity, creativity in everything, but also in the spirit of the modern human world, really celebrating the relationship between nature, creativity, and imagination. And that’s where our signature project, Forest of imagination, was born. So I’ll tell you about that in a minute.

Cyndi Burnett [00:07:05]:
So you just mentioned about art and you mentioned about creativity, and I noticed that you just came out with a book around teaching art creatively. So can you tell us how you see the difference between art and creativity? And can you tell us about how you teach art creatively?

Penny Hay [00:07:21]:
Yes, I’ll tell you about two books. I’ll tell you about this one first. So this first one is called teaching art creatively. This is written for all primary teachers in the world. So it’s about how to invite a really creative approach to teaching art, because creativity is in everything. It’s not just in art, but what art does is manifest and make visible creativity daily. So it’s a lovely approach to inviting possibility and a really creative approach to teaching art and design in the primary curriculum. And I work alongside intending teachers, teachers that are training at our university in initial teacher education.

Penny Hay [00:08:04]:
We have a postgraduate certificate for education, and I run the arts specialism. So that’s all of the arts, again, all of the time. But those students that choose to take that creative pathway, we work together over the year, and that’s one of my favorite courses to teach. But I’m also committed to the idea of making creativity visible in everything. Even though I’m an artist, I do believe that everybody is an artist. So I may as well mention my next book, which is about to come out, which is also with Routledge. And it’s the version of, it’s a PhD monograph that I’ll have to read the title because it’s too long. So it’s called children are artists.

Penny Hay [00:08:45]:
The role of adults in supporting children’s learning identity as artists. In this context, I worked with the same group of children for five years, and I documented all of their learning and then distilled a repertoire of creative pedagogical approaches to really think about the role of the adults, whether that’s an educator, a teacher, a parent, a carer, a mentor, an artist, a cultural professional alongside the child. What are the best ways to create that learning environment for thinking about everybody being an artist?

Matthew Worwood [00:09:22]:
Can you summarize a little bit about what you found from that work?

Penny Hay [00:09:27]:
I think the most important thing was I used the framing of our charity’s research. So with our charity, we focused very early on on four key strands, and I kept those in my mind when I was working alongside the children and the artists and the educators over these five years. So in terms of the creative values that you are then instilling in the learning environment, thinking about, well, the learning environment itself, being creative, really paying attention to the creative dispositions of children, so that you’re inviting that inquiry based learning, and then thinking about the creative relationships, what it is for an adult to be alongside a child. So I think the findings kind of indicate really the importance of the adult as a companion in learning. The spaces of possibility that you’re inviting the opportunity for children to follow their fascinations, which is actually the strap line of our charity now, and really thinking about, importantly, the values that underpin everything. So making sure that the environment is positive and caring, the role of the adult is compassionate and listening. We’re very inspired in our work by the practice in reggiomilia in Italy, and really thinking about not only the environment as the third teacher, but also thinking about that pedagogy of listening, so paying attention, quality attention to the time you give, the space you provide. And that idea of thinking about how you don’t prescribe activity, you invite it.

Penny Hay [00:11:21]:
So I was focusing much more on Hertegogy. So self directed inquiry and self determined learning, rather than prescriptive learning. And in all of teaching, I would always use that mantra, possibilities, not prescriptions. And I think that what I’m trying to invite is that idea of reimagining learning so that we’re moving in these spaces of possibility. I’ve just written an article about spaces of possibility, so I can share that with you, but also that learning isn’t packaged and delivered, and it’s based on the children’s interests and inquiries, their curiosities, what really interests them. So what I observed working with the same group of children, which was a total privilege, was that they were so interested in so many different things, but they also learned from each other. And I wasn’t there as the expert in the room. I was there as a companion in their learning.

Penny Hay [00:12:21]:
So that’s a quick summary, Matt. But at the end of, I hid an exhibition in the middle of my thesis, which will be in the book, some of it. I will have an exhibition in the future, I hope. And then I ended the thesis with a manifesto, which is the summary that you would like to have, I’m sure.

Matthew Worwood [00:12:44]:
Thank you for that. And most important takeaways that I got from that was the idea of reflecting on what values do you want to install into your classroom environment? One of the shared values, I think that I could relate to that you shared was this idea of learning being a shared experience. When I’m designing my learning experiences and my curriculum, I’m always trying to identify opportunities for discussion and dialogue and being open minded. And to your point, I love the wording of companion. I think the companion piece I like a little bit more because at least in my environment, I feel that I can learn as much from the students as they can learn from me. When we take a topic such as what is originality in an age of AI, which I’m planning on exploring in the spring, I don’t know the answer to that question, but I value the shared learning experience that I can facilitate between myself and the students, but also the students themselves as well. And so that’s me connecting my value, being able to articulate it and make sure I plan around it well.

Cyndi Burnett [00:13:53]:
And I think when we’re talking about a creative learning environment, so many things that you mentioned really echo some of the things that we’ve heard in the past, like really listening and caring and giving students that opportunity. I love this follow your fascination, which I think is just a wonderful phrase to use with your students to follow their fascinations. But the thing that really struck me was possibilities, not prescriptions that you mentioned, Penny, because I think so often, and I know as someone who works with a lot of educators myself, and talking to them about, here’s how you bring creative thinking. Here are some ideas that might spark ideas for you. And they say, can you give me a script? And it’s not about a script. It’s about what you said. It’s about listening to what your students need and to be their companion and to go on this journey with them to uncover whatever it is that they’re meant to learn and really to be.

Penny Hay [00:14:47]:
Their companion in the researching children research in the world book. And that commitment to being alongside the very first paragraph I open with where I’m talking about our philosophical framework is just a couple of sentences that sum this up, really. And I say, imagine a world where our children are engaged in serious creative play, where their environments are full of space and light, where adults are companions in the children’s inquiries about the world, creative adults who show a deep respect for children’s ideas, theories and fascinations. And in fact, that thread, that kind of philosophical thread has been woven all the way through my work alongside educators and artists and cultural professionals, students, children, young people, and in fact, our two signature projects. One of them is school without walls, which is now in its twelveth year, and the other forest of imagination. They are kind of manifestations of that possibility of working with a creative learning invitation rather than a prescriptive curriculum. So, although in the book teaching art creatively, obviously I do address the fact that in England particularly, we have a national curriculum, however, I’m talking about having a structure, but moving in the spaces in between to go beyond, and that these inquiries come out of children’s interests and fascinations. So our project, school without walls, is co designed with educators and artists alongside children, young people, and together we co design the curriculum based on their interests.

Penny Hay [00:16:31]:
We still have coverage, inverter commerce of the curriculum that is required, but it’s all based on inquiry based learning, and it’s all about their agency and that sense of that dynamic relationship in intergenerational learning. I’ve just written the impact case study for our research excellence framework, and that’s been published, so I can share that with you as well. But that was also really thinking about the relationship of how do we invite, how do we reimagine education so that we get away from prescription and package, and we start thinking about not a silo based approach, but thinking about an inquiry based approach around real life learning that embeds all of the creative and social, cultural, intellectual values that we want to shine a light on, but also thinks about how. Well, I think now, especially in response to the war, the ecological emergency and the pandemic, we are absolutely at the right time to reimagine education. It’s never been more urgent, and especially with the arts, and especially embedding creativity in everything in the way that we learn, and not just as children and people, but the way that we learn all the way through our lives.

Matthew Worwood [00:17:51]:
And you keep using the word beautiful and I go back to one of our first ever interviews on the podcast where Ron Begetta was talking about this concept of beautiful creativity. To summarize that podcast interview, it really was about helping the students identify something that has value to them, but also an outcome that can have an impact beyond the four walls of the classroom as well. And I think that that type of learning is beautiful. It is special. It’s so meaningful to not just the child, but also their relationship with the world. And I want to come back to the art piece, because when you talk about prescription, I’m typically making the connection with industry, saying, we need students skilled in these things, and therefore schools will go away or the system will go away and develop a curriculum to deliver students skilled in those things. And to me, that was kind of my takeaway with the prescription piece. Right.

Matthew Worwood [00:18:54]:
We need these skills to heal this vacancy that we currently have. How does your work in the arts accommodate the need, or at least this pressure that we have from industry while also still remaining to the values that you’ve been talking about in this podcast interview?

Penny Hay [00:19:12]:
This is a quote from a seven year old that is in my book. And we were talking with the children about what it is to be an artist, and where are there artists in the world? What is art in the world? Who’s an artist? Who chooses to make it a career? What other creative jobs are there in the world? Are all jobs creative? What about the creative industries? We had a fantastic conversation, and this particular seven year old just kind of bounced up and down, you know, when children are kind of really excited. And she said, I know I’ve got five things about being an artist, and I’ve got it in front of me. So she says five things about being an artist. One, have a great imagination. Then you’ll have great ideas. Two, be positive and don’t worry if you make mistakes. Three, be good at playing.

Penny Hay [00:20:06]:
Four, be thoughtful. Five, art is about everything. I was like, my eyes and my mouth are wide open. And I went, please, can you write that down, please? And so she did, and that’s my gift, and that’s in the front of my PhD. But I think importantly, this is an approach to learning. So we’ve just made a film for the forest of imagination. So coming back to the egg again, the egg is a brilliant, brilliant organization, and we’ve worked together in partnership for a long time. And the director, Kate Cross, is one of my best friends.

Penny Hay [00:20:44]:
And we have the best arguments about children’s learning for the right reasons, because we really believe everyone’s an artist. And that underpins our creative methodology and our commitment to artistic excellence. So we’ve worked together right from the beginning of the ex theater’s birth, if you like, and now together, we’re also partnering with our other signature project, which is called Forest of imagination, and that is now in its 10th year. In fact, it’s our 10th birthday this year and that’s co designed with the creative genius Andrew Grant, who designed super trees in Singapore. So he’s incredible and he’s a landscape architect based in Bath. Well, and now across the world. But if you know, governor by the bay in Singapore, we were in discussion about his phrase, let’s just put creativity on the pavement. And I said, well, yes, let’s call it the forest of imagination.

Penny Hay [00:21:46]:
Really thinking about inviting the whole community, schools, college, both universities, really thinking about working alongside local and international artists and creative professionals in the city and having a conversation not only about our collective imagination, but also the importance of nature in our lives. And I think especially now in the face of the biodiversity and ecological emergency, it’s even more important that we start with a kind of climate education, sustainability embedded in education. So, yeah, ten years on, each year, we reimagine a different space in the city together with the children, young people, the artists and designers as co creators. Designers, co creators, co designers, co producers, all the co words. And then we reimagine a familiar space and bring in a fantastical, intuitive kind of invitation to play. So if you have a chance to watch the film which is on our website, that was this year’s event, which was at the egg theatre. And it came out of a conversation. In fact, it was during COVID Kate rang me up and said, help, Penny, I’ve got an empty theatre.

Penny Hay [00:23:02]:
What should we do? And I went, easy. Kate put a forest inside. So we literally borrowed a forest and we brought it into the egg. We co designed it with the wonderful artist and filmmaker Andrew Amundsen in Berlin. And we talk about learning like a forest, learning like a meadow. And so have a look at that film because it’s really. And in that film, Matt, you can tease me, because I do use that phrase beautiful. And I often talk to my students about what is beautiful, learning what is really aesthetic learning.

Penny Hay [00:23:37]:
Every classroom should be a work of art. How can we invite children to follow their fascinations? How can we bring in a multi sensory space that is emotionally, I’m not only am I a big fan of Joseph Boyce, but I’m also that mantra that Bob and, you know, every school should be an art school, and that’s always been my life’s.

Matthew Worwood [00:24:04]:
I think, you know, if you just unpick at least some of the words that I would connect with the arts, I mean, you’ve referenced the word visual, but sometimes the arts isn’t just visual, but visual is one modality of expression, and it’s about making connections with feelings and asking questions. And when you start to list the words that you associate with the arts, I hope that those words are things that we should and can associate with a classroom environment as well. So we did this podcast where we was thinking about teachers as designers, but I think we kind of looked at it more along the lines of designing to solve problems and develop solutions. But there’s also the idea of, I think, teachers as artists, where it is about creating an environment of just expression and love and individual identity, but individual identity that’s shared and cherished by everyone that participates and engages in the learning experience in that environment.

Penny Hay [00:25:08]:
I agree, and I think that the idea know art is in everything. Creativity is in everything. There’s a wonderful radio series on at the moment with Margaret Heffernan, who’s a dear friend and who we’ve met through the forests, and she opened the forest imagination last year and actually made everybody cry in the right way in that she was talking about climate change on children. In fact, everybody cried. It was very emotional. So, yes, actually, during lockdown, we had an amazing conversation with the senior fire starter for the BBC R D research and development unit about the imagination. And because we were all in our rooms, we were in our studies, we could only go for a certain amount of time outside, et cetera, et cetera. One of the brilliant things that came out of COVID and being in lockdown was that we literally fell down a metaphorical rabbit hole where we were inviting young people to co design adaptive podcasts based on listening to the natural world.

Penny Hay [00:26:21]:
So now we’re working with a whole host of creative tech wizards and artists in multidisciplinary contexts. And this is amazing because it’s come out of that moment of how do we frame our learning with these kind of philosophical values that invites inquiry and makes it purposeful.

Cyndi Burnett [00:26:44]:
Thank you so much, Penny. Well, we could talk to you all day about all the amazing work you’re doing, but unfortunately, we have to wrap up. So we end every episode with three tips that you would give to educators to help them bring creativity into their classrooms.

Penny Hay [00:26:59]:
As I said earlier, I think framing learning around the time and space and the attention that you invite children to explore their creativity and their imagination through beautiful learning. I think it’s my three tips, if that’s the best phrase, would be to invite possibility and openness, to create an ethos that makes creativity visible, and to go with the flow so that you’re genuinely following children’s fascinations.

Matthew Worwood [00:27:38]:
Well, Penny, thank you so much for joining us in our first episode of season six of the fueling Creativity in Education podcast. Now, if you really enjoyed this episode, like always, Cindy will be posting a link to this episode on her LinkedIn page, and myself and Penny will be participating in that conversation. And Penny will be sharing some of the links to the projects, the various projects that she’s referenced during the show. My name is Dr. Matthew Warwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:28:04]:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett. This episode was produced by creativity and education in partnership with warwoodclassroom.com. Our editor is Sina Yusefsade.