Victoria Waller [00:00:00]:
I think we have to give the children freedom to choose projects. I think we have to know that every child has passions and strengths and we have to read, research, and talk to the kids.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:13]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:16]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:18]:
This is the fueling Creativity and Education podcast.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:22]:
On this show, we’ll be talking about creativity topics and how they apply to the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:27]:
We’ll be speaking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and digging deeper into new and varying perspectives of creativity, all with the.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:38]:
Goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers and parents with knowledge they can use at home or in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:46]:
So let’s begin today we welcome to the show Dr. Victoria Waller. For over 40 years, Victoria has been a reading specialist and educational therapist. She helps children ages five through eleven who have trouble reading and writing, can’t sit still in class and don’t feel like they can participate. Children whom teachers have all but given up on. She has an EdD focused on reading and learning differences and has been awarded the University of Cincinnati’s Distinguished Alumna College of Education award. Victoria has a book, yes, your children can creating success for children with learning differences. Welcome to the show, Victoria.

Victoria Waller [00:01:26]:
Oh, I’m so happy to be here. Thank you so much.

Cyndi Burnett [00:01:29]:
So let’s start with motivation. So can you share with us some creative techniques you would recommend to help students who don’t enjoy learning?

Victoria Waller [00:01:39]:
Okay, I have to tell you, there’s not a child in over 40 years that I have found, and I’m not talking only about kids with learning differences. They could have emotional problems. Parents could be split up. Something could have happened in their family, anything like that. Every child enjoys learning. I’ve never met a child. You have to understand, I’ve seen thousands of children. They all can enjoy learning and they want to learn.

Victoria Waller [00:02:06]:
It may be hard for them, but it looks like they don’t want to, but they really do. And children with differences are geniuses of our time and other children with issues. They all have passions and strengths. The teacher, I’m so sorry to tell you this, but the teacher has to bring it out. The teacher has to give children the freedom to create and do what they love. Parents, of course, might tell parents, come to me and I’ll say, what’s your child good at? And they can only tell me what their child is bad at. He can’t do this. He can’t do this.

Victoria Waller [00:02:44]:
I just met a child and the mother said, oh, he’s good at Legos. Okay, so I had some Legos for him, and he looked at me, said, vicky, I do Legos that are 10,000 pieces. And I said, what? I can’t even do this little one, but can you read? He goes, no, I don’t know how to read. I said, how do you do it? Said, I look at the pictures to tell you I’ve seen some of those spaceships. There’s no way. Looking at the pictures, I could do it. Parents have to relax and think about what their kids can do, not what their kids can’t do. The teacher has to be the one that gives them the freedom to do what they can.

Victoria Waller [00:03:22]:
They just have to be there saying, oh, my child loves rocket ships. Okay, maybe that can be woven into what they’re studying about. My child’s great at art. Good. Maybe instead of a written book report, it can be a book report made out of all the characters out of clay. And then maybe the child dictates the story to somebody right at the beginning if they can’t write. You have to give children the freedom. And I’m telling you, I’ve taught thousands and thousands of children in classrooms and as an ed therapist, they all have a passion.

Victoria Waller [00:03:58]:
You just have to find it.

Matthew Worwood [00:04:00]:
The relationship between parent and teacher strikes me a little bit here, because you’re talking about the teacher has to bring it out of them. And a teacher is a very important piece of that puzzle in terms of creating that environment and making it a comfortable place for that student to learn. But then I’m sitting here and I’m thinking about young children. I don’t know if my eight year old, if he was posed, what are you good at? What are you interested? He might identify a couple of things, but I think I could assist the teacher identifying some interests that perhaps I’ve observed that he doesn’t know. So, for example, my youngest, he would say, I love drawing and painting, but actually, I also recognize that he’s very good at problem solving. Very, very good at problem solving. And he loves to build things and make things, bordering on the line engineering as opposed to just art. So I’m just wondering, Victoria, a, do you see the value of that relationship between parent and teacher? And B, do you have any strategies on how we might be better at bridging the gap between what the parent might know based on what the child is expressing in the home environment to help the teacher try and bring that same expression into the classroom environment?

Victoria Waller [00:05:09]:
With children who don’t have any issues, a parent comes in and is talking. And the teacher can say, hopefully she’ll read my book or he’ll read my book and ask some questions about the child beforehand. Children who have differences, what happens is the parents, like in August, they start writing to the teacher, I want a meeting. I have a child with differences. The teacher is not ready in August to deal with that. They’re not ready. They give the teacher time to get to know your child and say, maybe I’d like to speak with you at the end of September and give you some ideas of what my child is good at. I think what the teachers have to do is have.

Victoria Waller [00:05:48]:
Now you’re talking about building in a classroom. There should be, are you ready? Boxes, old cameras, old remote controls, keys and locks from etsy you can build. I found this for $5. I got hundreds of old keys, and it was so fantastic. Now I want to tell you something. You did ask, how are you creative? I have to tell you something in my brain. I can think of an idea, but I am not the person who can make the project. It’s so interesting.

Victoria Waller [00:06:26]:
The children say to me that we did the treehouse series with Andy Griffith, who, I love him, okay. And I got these big boxes and I said, oh, let’s make a treehouse. And this little girl said to me, oh, Vicki, we always go on Amazon. Let’s go on Amazon and let’s get the little wooden, round pieces and barks. We’ll find it on Amazon. I thought, what is she talking about? So in other words, I had an idea to make the treehouse, but I let the student go and find it. I go online, you wouldn’t believe it. They’re barks, actual barks, like this.

Victoria Waller [00:06:59]:
She did hot glue. I did the hot glue. I don’t let kids touch the hot glue, even though they do it at school. And she made the barks. Andy Griffith wrote back and said, this treehouse is better than anything I’ve done. Can you imagine? The child got a letter back. So you don’t have to be yourself, somebody who’s creative. You can think of an idea.

Victoria Waller [00:07:21]:
Listen, we have Google now. You go on Google and put treehouses. There’ll be 200 different ideas. If you’re a teacher. All you have to do is go to Google and look for opportunities. You don’t have to be the one like, I can’t draw. I can’t do any of that stuff. I can say, let’s build a treehouse.

Victoria Waller [00:07:39]:
But I have the junk. Teachers should write to parents, and if they can have some boxes in the back old cameras are like $3. The kids make characters out of old cameras. They put a styrofoam head, they put paper around. They make the character of the book. They read cereal boxes. You can make a cereal box. A child made a whole cereal box about Jane Goodall, and she made a cereal box of Jane Goodall.

Victoria Waller [00:08:09]:
So on the front were pictures. On the side, she had what she does. She had all the report done on a cereal box. Everybody has a cereal box. I think you can buy old paintbrushes. You think, oh, I’m going to teach her. I’m going to throw them out. No, use them and make characters on them.

Victoria Waller [00:08:26]:
The children make a character. They put it on the paintbrush, and they go like this. You have to give the children the freedom to express. And it comes from the parent saying, this is what my child is good at. What you just said about your child, the teacher should know that. So maybe instead of doing just a book report says, would you build me the house that the person lived in in this book that he read? I think we have to have the parents and the teachers get together and the kids have to have the freedom, the freedom to not just make this like I did a box. Try to have. And nowadays, with all the junk, with the boxes and the blank books by Ashley, did you buy one? You said you’re going to buy one, the Ashley books, the blank books.

Matthew Worwood [00:09:16]:
No, I’m being called out here. So first of all, I have bought different blank books. So for our listeners, Victoria and I had a conversation about the fact that my child like to just write and draw almost as if they’re creating their own book. And so, Victoria, you had made that suggestion that I should buy the Ashley books. I’d found some other ones, and I’m going to give them for the vacation as well. And I think to a certain extent, some schools give journals away as well. But that’s also interesting as well. I mean, journals are slightly a structured activity where you’re encouraged to write about your day and you have to be.

Victoria Waller [00:09:49]:
Able to know how to write and spell. You have to write and spell.

Matthew Worwood [00:09:53]:
You’re completely right. Just to wrap up, though, what I’m hearing, though, is there needs to be a relationship between the parent and the teacher. I did catch the fact that you had said to parents, let’s give the teacher a little bit of time. Don’t reach out in August. And what I was thinking about that is, let’s give the teacher time to also observe your child in the classroom environment. But to the teachers, out there, you need to make sure you’re creating an environment in those first couple of weeks to which you have an opportunity to see the children expressing different types of creativity. So you can begin to draw conclusions or at least begin to generate ideas about that child that then when you begin to interact with the parent, you can either confirm certain assumptions that you’ve made or potentially get a little bit more of a more in depth understanding about what you’re seeing in the classroom. So I think that’s really good advice from both teachers and parents, particularly teachers and parents of young children.

Victoria Waller [00:10:50]:
And there was a teacher, a third grade teacher. I went to the classroom, and she wasn’t me. She wasn’t jumping around and doing stuff. She was a good, solid teacher. And this child that I had needed a good, solid teacher. So third grade boy, she gave each child what they had to do, their research report, and she gave him strawberries. Do you know any third grade boy who’d go, yippee, I get to research strawberries very calmly. I wrote her back and I said, he’s an expert on roller coasters.

Victoria Waller [00:11:24]:
His grandmother lives in Cedar Point in Ohio. He knows everything about roller coasters. He has built a roller coaster, and I couldn’t even do what he did because he did so many inches equal a foot. So he made a roller coaster. I didn’t even know what he did. So she said, sure, do it. We found the president of Cedar Point. He interviewed him.

Victoria Waller [00:11:47]:
He had to write questions. He interviewed him. He went with his mother to Cedar Point, and he interviewed, he interviewed, like, the people that ran the things, the people who, people who were there, like, what do you do if something. My mother went on the roller coaster and her Gucci glasses fell off. And the president of Cedar Point said, tell your mother not to wear Gucci glasses when she’s on a roller coaster again. But they have a place where if you lose something when you’re on the roller coaster, you take it to the lost and found. This teacher, was she jumping up and down? No, but she said, oh, okay, he likes roller coasters. You don’t have to do strawberries.

Victoria Waller [00:12:29]:
Teachers and parents, you have to get together. You have to engage the children with what they want to do. You can get a report out. It just may not have to be about strawberries. I think you have to engage children with interesting articles from the week junior best magazine right now. I’m telling everybody, buy it. The articles are short. It’s about everything going on in the world, and it’s interesting.

Victoria Waller [00:12:55]:
One of my students found the man who was caught in the whale’s mouth. I found him on Google. Somebody said to me, how do you find these people? We have Google now. I looked up Google. I found his phone number, and I called him. I said, would you let this seven year old interview you? He said, sure. And he interviewed the man who was caught in the mail and this fisherman who was caught in the whale’s. It was fabulous.

Victoria Waller [00:13:17]:
He had to write. He dictated to me because he doesn’t really write that well. He dictated to me. I typed it for him. He practiced it, and he interviewed him like a tv interviewer. It was unbelievable. And let me tell you what happens when a child does something that they’re good at, like the roller coasters. It gives them confidence.

Victoria Waller [00:13:39]:
And let me tell you, if you have confidence, you then can succeed because you think, oh, I can do it. Most of the students come to me and say, I can’t do it. And they can. You have to engage them, see what they like, talk to them. Take a couple of kids out in the hallway. A teacher can do that, even at the beginning. Send out a little questionnaire. What do you like? What do you like to build? I had a whole Pokemon year.

Victoria Waller [00:14:09]:
Everybody liked Pokemon. I put up every character, a picture of them on boards, and then I put the sound like b drill. I put, okay, two e’s is long, e. Put words underneath that have the same long vowel sound. I use what they’re interested in. This goes out for teachers, too. You can use what children are interested in and get your decoding and get your books read and get writing all about what they’re. Connect kids with their heroes.

Victoria Waller [00:14:40]:
Music. Oh, my gosh. I went into a 7th grade class in the inner city of Detroit with 30 boys who I could never teach, and he was teaching them with Motown music. Well, hello, I’m from Detroit. I went crazy. And for 40 years, I teach children. Today it’s, I don’t care about Bruno, this horrible song, which, excuse me, I hate, but that song has digress and blends and suffixes. I use songs.

Victoria Waller [00:15:08]:
A teacher can do that.

Cyndi Burnett [00:15:10]:
I think one of the things that really struck me about what you said a little bit earlier was around every kid could have a passion. And, Matt, it brings me back to our conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, who talked about passion and said, how can we expect kids to have passions so early on? And I see you feel strongly about that. Our listeners can’t see your nonverbals, but I could definitely see your verbals. And I’ve met a lot of parents through schools that I work with, and they just say, when I talk to my kids, they just have a blank look on their face when I ask them about things they’re interested in. Or is interest the pathway to passion? And how do we know when they are actually interested in something, when they might not have the enthusiasm around things that some other children might have?

Victoria Waller [00:15:59]:
I have never, ever met a child three years and older, and listen, they want some game they’re playing on the computer. I’m not talking about that. Starting at three, even younger, they have a book they want you to read ten times over. The same book ten times over. They’re interested in Pokemon. So you use those kinds of things, of what they like. I’ve never met even a three year old. If you ask them, they’ll tell you, he likes.

Victoria Waller [00:16:28]:
My friend just. She had a baby. My friend’s child, she had a baby. And she said, oh, my gosh, he’s into fire trucks. Well, of course, he’s three years old. I brought her a whole bunch of books with fire trucks. And he loves his dog and a dog. Even young kids, they know what they like, whether it’s reading to them the same book over and over.

Victoria Waller [00:16:51]:
My son said to me, I’m going crazy, and I can’t remember the book. When she was little, she liked, every night I take a new book, and she goes, no, this one, she takes the same book over and over. It’s okay. There’s no child that doesn’t have something that they love, and you can get it away from just being a computer game. You know what I mean? You can do that. And if the parents have that junk in their garage, I have old cereal boxes, I have old jewelry boxes. And they go in and you say, make a train. You love a train.

Victoria Waller [00:17:28]:
And they do it. And you’re sitting there going, I don’t know how they did it. I’m telling you, every child has it in their brain what they like and they love know people want to get them off the computer and off of these games and everything. Just give them an Amazon box, give them colored paper, give them glue, markers, and I’m telling you, they’ll make that. My kids made a train out of four big boxes. You know what my box was from? I ordered 25 jumbo marshmallows. If you harden them, you can make them into characters and draw on them. And the kids make all kinds of things with hard marshmallows.

Victoria Waller [00:18:07]:
But I made a mistake and ordered not 25, 250. So I had some really big boxes. I got 250 bags of jumbo marshmallows. My husband thought I ordered a car. He had no idea what I ordered. My kids took these big box and he said, oh, this is a train. Believe me, I didn’t see a train. I saw how much money I spent on 250 jumbo marshmallows and they made a train.

Victoria Waller [00:18:35]:
I didn’t have to say anything. But if we give them that junk and that stuff in the garage, let’s create. They will get off their computers. They will do it because it’s fun and you’ll see what they’re interested in.

Cyndi Burnett [00:18:48]:
So let’s talk about teachers, because a lot of educators that we work with, they don’t feel as if they’re creative. So what do you recommend to educators who want to bring creativity in but don’t feel creative themselves?

Victoria Waller [00:19:01]:
Well, I think what it is is the word freedom. Freedom to let the children create. I’m telling you, when people say, oh, Vicki, you’re so creative, no. Yes. I say, oh, let’s make a house, but I don’t know how I’m going to do it. Listen, if they get my book, there’s thousands of ideas in the book, and I don’t mean to be selling my book, but it’s honestly true. I have all the ideas in there, and if you know what their passion is, like the kid who liked the cars, he got this one child, he picked out Oklahoma’s state, and I went Oklahoma to study Oklahoma. So we open a book and we find out the biggest.

Victoria Waller [00:19:42]:
His name is Darryl Starberg, and he builds his own cars since he’s been 15 years old. I think he’s in his 60s now. All of a sudden, we knew something about, was interesting about Oklahoma, other than they have a lot of trouble with earthquakes because they frack a lot. But we had to find it. Teachers have to, if they don’t know what it is, they have to find out. You interview kids. Do you know kindergartners? If I interview them, what do you like to do? They’ll tell you, oh, I like Adele. Oh, I like this I like.

Victoria Waller [00:20:16]:
And you create by finding out what they like. And you still do whatever you have to be teaching, even math. Do it with characters from Pokemon. Listen, there are many, many books out besides mine that have ideas. And on the Internet, you look it up, creative book reports. So the teachers have to access some of the things they’re not used to, and they can give a list to kids and they have to have the stuff in the room, though. Beginning of the year. Write a list.

Victoria Waller [00:20:47]:
I want old cameras. Everybody’s got old cameras. Everybody. And they’re not using them anymore. Have them bring them in and you’ll see. You give each child a camera, and you say, we’re studying about the west. Make something with this camera. I’m telling you, kids will love it.

Victoria Waller [00:21:03]:
The teacher doesn’t have to be creative. She has to use the Internet. She has to use books and find the topics. And then the children give them the freedom, and they’ll do it. It’s quite amazing when you do that.

Matthew Worwood [00:21:20]:
And that is an expression of creativity, right? As the teacher looks to embark on this journey of trying to find new ways to engage the students in the curriculum, that is an act of teacher creativity in the classroom. But, Victoria, I want to throw a question out here because I’m suspecting that there might be some of our listeners, particularly saying this at the very beginning. I referenced the word environment and some of the things that you’re talking about. I’m envisioning a kindergarten environment. So what would you say to a social sciences teacher in, let’s say, 10th grade and 11th grade who has teenagers who are coming into the classroom? Perhaps some of them don’t want to be there and they’re not fully engaged, but they’re wanting to somehow spark an interest in them so that they can be better at teaching this topic. What would you say to that teacher?

Victoria Waller [00:22:14]:
Well, I don’t think it’s changing the curriculum. First of all, I don’t work with high school kids, but I would still do the same thing. Those 7th graders, he taught them everything, but through music, he taught them how it’s really reading and writing. But for ideas, you have to have the time. If you’re a good teacher, you have to do this and you have to put it into the children’s lap. What can you do? You’re studying space. This is an interesting one. Okay, let’s say for some reason you’re doing space.

Victoria Waller [00:22:47]:
Well, space is a great one, my students. There was a space. Make a toilet for space. Hero X. But you see, you have to research. You have to go on the Internet. I’m sorry, you do. You’re a teacher that has to be creative in the sense that you use the materials that will turn kids on.

Victoria Waller [00:23:05]:
You can’t be in that book and read a book and be boring. You just can’t. But like SpaceX, the kids were studying space. I think this was like a 6th grade, and this thing came up on the computer. Hero X. I never heard of it. Hero X. It was a contest to build a toilet for space.

Victoria Waller [00:23:24]:
Because in space, if you go poop in the toilet, which the children love poop, because it was a poop toilet, the poop flies out. So they said, five years and up. So I called the woman. I call everybody. I called the woman. I said, five years and up. Are you giving my kids who are five years old something? They went, no, Vicki, we really want a toilet made for space. I said, well, okay, what if I give my kids the idea to do this? What will you give them? She said, let me call you back.

Victoria Waller [00:23:59]:
Talk to the big people, the president. They called back, they said, we’ll give them a certificate that says they made it. You have never seen a five year old who made out of. It’s so funny. They made them out of everything you could think of. There were old bottles, milk cartons, there were plastic glasses. And they all in their brain said, I’m going to make a machine. So the poop, they made a toilet.

Victoria Waller [00:24:27]:
They pretended made a toilet. Then they told me, how does the poop go out and go out of the spaceship? And I asked them the questions, and I had to type it because they couldn’t type or anything like that. Five years old, six years old and eight years old, they knew exactly the way that poop was going to work, how it was going to go out through the cardboard tube from the paper toweling, and how it was going to go into space and leave the spaceship. It’s connecting. It’s connecting children with interesting ways to do things and let them do it. If you said to me, make a new toilet for the spaceship, honestly, gosh, I would not have thought of what they did.

Matthew Worwood [00:25:13]:
And you know what? What I really like about that, one of the big takeaways. And Victoria, your stories are so inspiring. And, yeah, I mean, I suppose you could say that they might be overwhelming for some teachers, depending on when in the year you’re listening to them. But I think my takeaway from your response, Victoria, is generating ideas is part of teaching and generating ideas on how to engage students. And you be creative in how you go about administering that curriculum is part of teaching. And so it’s your responsibility to try and find the time. And we certainly had podcasts where we’ve discussed about the fact that sometimes that’s the shower time or sometimes it’s your journey in or your journey back from your classroom environment. But that’s the takeaway I’m going with is it’s part of our responsibility as educators to go find the time to generate ideas that can help us be creative.

Victoria Waller [00:26:09]:
I think we have to give the children freedom to choose projects. I think we have to know that every child has passions and strengths, and we have to read, research and talk to the kids.

Matthew Worwood [00:26:25]:
So, Victoria, I have a question. I have people that are close to me, friends that have been in that situation where they begin to realize or understand that their child has learning differences, how they approach learning, how they interact in what we dare. I say, a traditional learning environment is sometimes uncomfortable or harder for them. And so those parents, I know, sometimes have this really frustrated feeling that they’re fighting against the system. They feel lost. They don’t know what to do. So I was wondering if you could give me a response specifically to some of those parents that might be listening and experiencing that right now.

Victoria Waller [00:27:09]:
This is so important. And I’m not pushing my book and saying, read my book. Read my book. My book is a step by step for a parent, for a teacher, even for doctors, when you have an instinct, something’s wrong, it’s just not right with my child. And maybe one of the husband or the wife is saying, oh, I’ll snap out of it. They’re not going to snap out of it. My book takes you on a step by step journey, exactly what to do. You have that gut feeling if you do nothing, you’re going to have a child who isn’t very happy.

Victoria Waller [00:27:42]:
I can tell you right now, take the step, get the child tested. Get a good therapist to work with them after. It doesn’t have to be a Vicky Waller who has a doctorate. It can be. I met a 32 year old girl. The person who took her through high school was her second grade teacher who was a fabulous tutor. And she was brilliant and she took her all the way. Can you imagine? You have to find that person if the child needs medication.

Victoria Waller [00:28:13]:
Read my chapter. I’m not a doctor, but you have to think about the things after the child is tested. Then my book goes through everything, reading, writing. Who are the people are going to work with my children? What are these tests? What do they mean? Everything is written like it was called what to expect when you’re expecting. It was a pregnancy book that took women on a step by step. One month you’re going to feel this way. Second month you’re going to feel this way. That is what my book is.

Victoria Waller [00:28:45]:
It takes you on the journey to success. If you follow what my book says, I’m telling you, you will have that bright child will be successful and won’t be thinking about doing something else or being depressed or whatever, you must follow the steps in my book. And the best thing is, at the end of every chapter, I put the takeaways. So after you read the chapter on how do you talk to the person who’s testing your child? Just go to the end of the chapter. And in a blue box it says, this is what to ask. So you don’t have to reread the whole book because at the end of every chapter, it tells you exactly what to do. I’m telling you, we need, these children are the geniuses of our time, like Anderson Cooper, Simone Biles. If you follow this journey in the book step by step, I promise you your child will be successful.

Cyndi Burnett [00:29:38]:
So, Victoria, we wrap up every show with three tips that you would provide to educators to bring creativity into the classroom. So we would love to hear your three tips.

Victoria Waller [00:29:47]:
First of all, which I said, and I’m going to say it ten times, give the children the freedom to choose projects to do. Also find out what their passions and strengths are. It’s up to you to find out. Talk to them. They’ll tell you what they’re interested in. When you were talking about older kids, older kids for sure know exactly what they want to do. But even the five year olds who I did the spaceship with, all I had was junk in a box. And he put it together and it was unbelievable.

Victoria Waller [00:30:24]:
They all have it. We have to get it out of them and know that every child has the passions and strengths and we have to research, we have to read, we have to talk to the kids, and we have to show them how to research. It’s all you talk about, executive functioning. Watch a child with learning differences put together the whole rocket ship. And he had severe learning differences. And he put the whole thing, his math was amazing. He wrote the letter to the person. It was amazing.

Victoria Waller [00:30:57]:
We have to give them the freedom and we have to find out. I’m sorry, I can’t give anybody any excuses anymore. I can’t say, oh, I’ve been in the classroom. I’ve had 60 kids with learning differences. And believe me, I mean, I kept notes on everyone because I wouldn’t remember they’re coming and going. But every child has something that they love and you have to find out how to access it and how to make. And you’re becoming creative as a teacher by just listening to what they have to tell you. And I just think teachers have to research.

Victoria Waller [00:31:33]:
And it’s so easy now. It’s just easy on the computer to research.

Cyndi Burnett [00:31:38]:
This concludes this episode of the Fueling Creativity and Education podcast. Make sure you check out Victoria’s book, yes, your child can creating success for children with learning differences. And if you have any questions or thoughts about this episode or past or future episodes, please reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:32:01]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:32:03]:
This podcast was produced by creativity and education and in partnership with dadsforcreativity.com. Our editor is Sina Isabe.