Liz Radday [00:00:00]:
By giving kids voice and choice. That is how they find creativity. They need to feel control over the process, and that is how the most creative things come out of school.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:12]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:15]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:18]:
This is the fueling creativity and education podcast.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:22]:
On this show, we’ll be talking about creativity topics and how they apply to the field of education.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:27]:
We’ll be speaking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and digging deeper into new and varying perspectives of creativity, all with the.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:38]:
Goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers and parents with knowledge they can use at home or in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett [00:00:45]:
So let’s begin.

Matthew Worwood [00:00:48]:
Welcome to another episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast, and today we’re discussing a high school program built on students identifying and furthering one of their own interests while at school. Our guest today is Dr. Elizabeth Raday, who has been working in education for over 20 years. She first started teaching as a teenager, doing arts and crafts at Sleepaway camp. After college, she spent 16 years in the Midland high school classrooms, teaching stem subjects and working with students with learning disabilities. She now works for a unit called skills 21, which is part of a Connecticut education support center called Ed advance. She is passionate about student driven learning experiences, particularly those that take the shape of a Capstone project. Liz, it’s a pleasure to have you on the show today.

Liz Radday [00:01:31]:
Thanks for having me.

Matthew Worwood [00:01:33]:
So today we want to start the show just talking a little bit about Pip and also the Capstone curriculum that you’ve wrote.

Liz Radday [00:01:39]:
Capstone and Pip are very similar. A pip tends to be a smaller project where Capstone tends to be for high school juniors and seniors. And it’s a little bit of a longer project. But at the heart and the core of each of these projects is that kids are looking to learn, solve, make, or do something that is of interest to them. It comes from a passion, a desire, just an interest in a particular topic. And they go through the process of coming up with a topic and a project idea, thinking about what that final product will be at the end, setting a goal and then working through that project, including things like time management and research, finding resources, and ultimately finishing with some sort of authentic exhibition of what they’ve done.

Cyndi Burnett [00:02:32]:
Can you give us an example of that?

Liz Radday [00:02:34]:
Liz? I can give you a million examples, and I have so many, but I’ll just give you a few. So some of these projects, we see a lot of projects where kids want to learn something from a grandparent because their parents may not have taken on the same skill. And kids in the middle and high school age are very aware that grandma and grandpa aren’t going to be around forever. And so we have a lot of kids that want to learn something from their grandparents, whether it’s I want to learn my grandmother’s recipes from her native country or my grandmother is a knitter, sewer quilter, whatever. And my mom doesn’t do those crafts, I want to learn something from her. We had a great project where a young boy wanted to learn how to use a ham radio because his grandfather was a ham radio operator. So he spent a couple of months learning how to be a ham radio operator and getting his ham radio license. We see lots of projects in arts and creative and performing arts where kids want to create something, whether it’s a digital media final video podcast, book, artwork, painting, sculpture.

Liz Radday [00:03:44]:
We see projects where kids are looking to solve problems, like kids in foster care often don’t have supplies and their own stuff. So kids will do a fundraising drive or a collection drive to collect supplies for foster kids, kids in homeless shelters, animals in animal shelters, lots of projects around community service, connecting with the community. We see kids just learning things. They want to learn how to braid hair, how to ride a skateboard. And then we also have really more stemy, very high level academic projects where kids are looking at the antibacterial properties of the lotus leaf versus cicado, wings versus shark skin, and how can we use the biomimicry of that to make antibacterial products for our homes? So the range is endless.

Cyndi Burnett [00:04:40]:
It sounds fantastic. And I’m curious how you fit this into curriculum, because a lot of the teachers that we speak with talk about mapping all this wonderful enrichment into a curriculum that has a lot of standards and things like that. So how do you bring that in?

Liz Radday [00:04:58]:
So there’s a bunch of different ways that we can do this when we’re looking at students in the lower grades, fifth grade, and then middle school, 6th, 7th, and eigth, a lot of schools have actually turned this into an elective. So many schools have what is called a win period, what I need or what I need now. And we have schools that are implementing pip as a win class. And so the kids are working on these projects one or two days a week, 45 minutes at a time over the course of a trimester or semester. We see it being integrated into schools that have an advisory period every single day. In the middle school, they’ll dedicate some time to doing a personal interest project. Connecticut is a state that is starting with the class of 2023. Every student needs a mastery based diploma assessment, and many schools are satisfying that by having kids do a capstone project.

Liz Radday [00:05:53]:
And so it fits right into the curriculum because it is now a graduation requirement that students demonstrate mastery. So many of the schools I’m working with in Connecticut have made it a course, a capstone course, either a half a year, a full year integrated into something else. I’m working with a school that does these interest projects. They start them in their civics course, so they kind of plan during part of their civics course, and then they do the projects independently. So schools have been really creative. If they are motivated to fit it in, they find the space. It’s also really brilliantly aligned to the portrait of a graduate. So if your school is actually committed to helping your students demonstrate the portrait of a graduate, skills, which are typically very similar, communication, collaboration, critical thinking, and problem solving research, this is the authentic opportunity to do that.

Liz Radday [00:06:50]:
So if you really want to walk the talk and show that your kids can do this, they should be doing capstone projects and personal interest projects.

Matthew Worwood [00:06:59]:
And Liz, my follow up question is perhaps focus more on administrators who might be interested in implementing a program like this. But is there a preferred format? I mean, is this a kind of one semester experience, a whole year experience? What suggestions would you offer to someone who has that question based on your experience?

Liz Radday [00:07:18]:
The most successful way I see it being implemented is when it is a course, whether it’s a half a year or a full year, that just changes the scope of the project and kind of how deeply you dig into some of the beginning parts. But a half a year is appropriate. A full year is also fine, but when it is a course, when the kids have dedicated time to work on the project, that’s when it feels like it’s the most successful. With that being said, that for some students, they are doing the majority of their work outside of class. So if operating the ham radio, you can’t do a whole lot of that in class, painting your huge canvas, you’re probably not going to get all your paints out every day. So in the planning, that’s where teachers need to have a conversation with the student that this is a great project. What are you going to be doing during class every day? And so the young man that was doing the ham radio operation, he was actually studying for his ham radio test during class, but he had to learn Morse code. He had to learn all kinds of things about electronics and mechanics.

Liz Radday [00:08:28]:
So he was studying for that test. Kids that are doing art projects that happen outside of class. They are sketching, they’re writing their artist statement. They are figuring out how they’re going to get this piece of art out into the world. So it’s not just staying in their classroom. They’re doing research on the theme of whatever their art is about, or an artist that does similar work, similar things, when kids are doing projects that have a lot of kind of simple labor to them. So we have a lot of projects where kids want to make jewelry and sell it. I’m not going to let you string beads in my class for six weeks.

Liz Radday [00:09:04]:
You can do that outside of class. So what are you going to do in my class? You’re going to make your business plan. You’re going to think about your marketing. You’re going to think about your logo and your business name and what you’re going to do with the money, the organization you’re going to give it to. So as long as there’s careful planning, a course works amazingly well.

Matthew Worwood [00:09:23]:
Okay, Liz, so now I’m sold on the program. Now, going back to what I said earlier, thinking about administrators, what type of educator am I looking for when it comes know, facilitating this experience? Because it sounds to me know you’re having to facilitate a different experience for different students. You don’t necessarily know the outcome. So it does kind of suggest that it requires an educator that’s comfortable with this type of project and also an educator that probably has the skills to navigate some ambiguity that might arise during the semester.

Liz Radday [00:09:54]:
You’re looking for an educator who’s flexible. More than anything, they need to be okay with a little bit of chaos in the beginning, the way I’ve written my capstone curriculum and the way many Capstone courses start, everybody’s kind of working together. We’re all going to brainstorm today. We’re all going to think about our personalities. Today, we’re all going to think about that final product. But once kids have written a proposal, you’re right, they’re going in. However many kids, there are 15 kids, 15 directions. So the room gets a little chaotic, not necessarily noisy, not out of control.

Liz Radday [00:10:28]:
Just kids are doing different things, and every day looks different. You are not going to walk into class and stand at the board, give a lecture, let the kids practice, hand them some homework, and move on. Today I might be helping one kid find resources on where to get the best acrylic paint. And tomorrow I’m helping a kid find the recipe for, I don’t know, italian meatballs. And then the next day, I’m helping a kid figure out something that’s wrong with the Arduino. And I also tell teachers they do not need to be experts in any of these topics. They just need to be able to find the research. Rarely are the teachers experts in any of the topics that are going on in their classroom, especially technology topics.

Liz Radday [00:11:12]:
We have a lot of teachers that are like, I don’t know, I don’t code, I don’t game, I don’t write any of this. And that’s fine. The kid is already an expert. And the kids can learn so much from YouTube or other research and websites as long as the teacher can help guide them and help them evaluate sources and make sure that they are legitimate and helpful. That’s what the teacher needs to be able to do. So flexible, able to guide kids in research, okay with chaos, and okay with every day looking really different.

Cyndi Burnett [00:11:44]:
And is there some sort of rubric that you recommend? I know that’s a big thing when it comes to creative projects like this. I need a rubric. How am I going to assess whether or not the student was successful? So what do you recommend there?

Liz Radday [00:11:56]:
So typically what our schools are using are their rubrics for the portrait of the graduate. So when schools develop a portrait of a graduate, they usually develop what are the discrete skills under communication that I want my students to have, and what does it look like when it’s developing, when it’s met, and when it’s exceeded. And so that’s often what schools use as the kind of final evaluation of these projects is, have they demonstrated the vision of a graduate? And we have great projects that kids don’t ultimately end up finishing because the project was too big or they hit a major roadblock, or their time management wasn’t great, or just something goes wrong. And they can still be phenomenal capstone projects, because we all know you can learn so much from failure. And we’ve also seen phenomenal capstone projects and end products that we were like, great project. But did the kid really stretch? So a kid who makes documentary films all the time in his free time, and just makes another one on a new topic, great project. The film may be fantastic, but if they’ve already mastered all the skills of how to make a film, they probably didn’t really stretch that much. So that’s where we’re really looking at those kinds of skills.

Liz Radday [00:13:16]:
The communication, the collaboration, the creativity, the critical thinking, more than the actual final product, much more about the process than the product.

Matthew Worwood [00:13:27]:
And I think there’s some really important takeaways from that response, the first thing is, and this is a theme that’s come up on the show in the past, is really there’s a lot of opportunities to observe learning within the process. And in fact, the process is probably where the learning can take place. And perhaps there’s opportunities to conduct formative assessments and even maybe summative assessments within that process. But then also when we’re looking at this kind of like, culminating experience where students have an opportunity to showcase a product or some type of outcome, we want to include kind of a reflective exercise so they can kind of, like, showcase what they’ve actually learned. And I think within that reflection, what we hopefully can do is provide opportunities for students to think about, well, what was my expectations going into this project? And did I stretch myself sufficiently? Did I meet those expectations? How did I kind of, like, respond to any incidences of failure? And I think it connects to the story you shared about the documentary film project. It’s about the fact that this is someone that’s obviously comfortable producing documentary films. And if this student went about producing the same type of documentary film that they always produce, are they really challenging themselves to learn something new? Are they growing? But if they can kind of, like, shift their expectations so it’s not what it normally is, but actually shifting expectations to be a little bit bigger and better or doing something new and different to expand their skill set as a documentary filmmaker, and then at the end of it, reflect on whether or not they met those expectations, I think that’s what can really create a fantastic learning experience and also a good opportunity for reflection as well.

Liz Radday [00:15:12]:
Yeah. I was listening to Heather Lyons episode recently where she talks about engagement, and she talks about the zone of proximal development and needing that failure to really keep a kid engaged. And she talks about it in the context of video games. So if you play a video game and you just easily beat each level, you quickly lose interest. You’re not engaged, you’re not excited about it. And the same is very true for a Capstone project. If you set your goal for your Capstone project to be something you already know you can do, or that’s really easy for you, you’re not going to be engaged. You’re going to be doing it to be compliant because you want your half a credit or full credit, and you probably want the a, but you’re not going to hit that point of interest or engagement because it’s not hard and you don’t get wrapped into it.

Liz Radday [00:15:59]:
Where we see kids who will struggle and they will fight and fight and fight to get to that final product that they want. Or I love to hear from kids who, although it can be a negative, we often see seniors that are doing Capstone projects that they just fall in love with, and they get frustrated that they have to do work in other classes. And so I’ve interviewed kids who are like, yeah, my mom’s really mad. I totally didn’t hand in that english paper. But I’m so into my Capstone project, and we’re like, okay, we’ll do the english paper, but how cool that you are that engaged. I was at a high school a few years ago that had a traditional senior skip day, and these kids were preparing their capstone projects for competition. And the kids snuck into school to do their projects on senior skip day, and they weren’t supposed to be there, and they wanted to just kind of hide in the capstone room all day and work on their projects while their friends were literally at the beach. And these kids were so motivated by their capstone projects and the competition that they skipped senior skip day.

Matthew Worwood [00:17:13]:
Well, Liz, before I kind of go well off script, on my next question, I want to highlight the fact that you deserve an a for referencing one of our past episodes, and I think doing a really good job of summarizing our conversation with Heather Lyon. So thank you so much for that. Now, the question that’s going off a little script, know, you referenced the physical space, and it just popped into my know, is the physical space a factor that we should consider if we want to kind of implement some type of experience that is similar to what you’re talking about? I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. What do you think about in terms of the physical space? Have you noticed it being a potential factor that can, a, motivate students, or b, be conducive for creativity and stimulating interests?

Liz Radday [00:17:58]:
So the capstone room I’m thinking of was a room with a huge table in the middle, and around the outside were all Apple Mac computers. It was such a great room because the kids could spread out on that table every time they came in, and their stuff just kind of took over. And they also had easy access to computers because that was so important. And that room just felt a little different than a traditional classroom. It wasn’t desks. It wasn’t all facing forward. It just felt different. I have capsules that take place in regular classrooms, and that’s fine, but when kids have access to and see the technology that’s right there, if they’re in a space where there is a 3d printer or a laser cutter or some sort of maker space, that’s awesome.

Liz Radday [00:18:45]:
But it doesn’t have to be. The more space they have to spread out, though, the better. I feel like kids get more creative when they can just not be at a tiny desk and limited to that space. That empty table was for everyone, and there was just stuff on the walls hanging around with all of their different inspiration and drawings and pictures. And there seemed to always be a big roll of like butcher paper where kids could just sketch and draw and put ideas down. And it was always like every time I walked in there, there were things that were like, being built out of cardboard and prototypes. And because kids do want to do that stuff, you’d need a safe space to store it. If you’re in a high school where like eight different kid groups of kids are going to float in, you don’t want them touching, you don’t want the other kids stuff getting destroyed, even though it’s really interesting.

Liz Radday [00:19:35]:
So kids want to poke at it.

Cyndi Burnett [00:19:38]:
I want to go back to this idea around interest because we’ve been talking a lot about interests on the show. We had three gifted educators, researchers, come on, Dr. Sally Reese, Dr. Jonathan Plucker, and most recently Joe Renzuli. And we talked about interest with all of them. And they’re sort of this different viewpoint. And I think they both have its benefits. And I would love to hear your perspective because you just referenced it a bit ago.

Cyndi Burnett [00:20:04]:
One is that you have a student who takes something like the documentary student who loves creating documentaries and does a documentary as their Capstone project and does know, I think about Joe Ranzuli saying, if you’re working on a poetry unit and a student would rather do a video, let them do the video, because they’re going to enjoy doing it more, they’re going to enjoy learning more. So there’s a benefit of sort of building on your expertise, but there’s also a benefit. Sally Reese talked about this in diverse experiences and really getting students to go beyond what they’re used to. So for that student who loves to do documentary, to get them to do tap dancing, and all of a sudden they’re learning how to tap dance, and it’s really stretching them beyond their own zone. So when you coach teachers, do you recommend that they push students outside of their interest zone, or do you have them work within their interest zone?

Liz Radday [00:20:59]:
I think it really depends on the student. We see a lot of great projects where we do. If a kid has a really deep passion for a certain topic or skill. We do want them to push beyond what they’ve done before, though. So a kid who has been a dancer for 13 years, we have a lot of kids who’ve done martial arts and dance or something for so long, we don’t want them to just choreograph their senior recital. They’re going to do that anyway. What can you do? That would be a learning stretch for you. Would it be to teach four and five year olds ballet? Because you’ve never done that before? Then let’s explore your interest in teaching dance.

Liz Radday [00:21:37]:
We know you love dance, but do you like to teach it? Some kids do, some kids don’t. You’ve been doing very traditional, classic ballet for years, and you want to go, maybe you’re going to take a modern class this year, and you’ve never taken anything outside of ballet. We can go that direction. The first activity I have kids do when they start brainstorming for their Capstone project looks like a March madness. You know, like the draft for March Madness that has all the ideas on the outside, and then they play against each other. So the kids list 16 different ideas in pairs of eight, and then they kind of go, okay, true crime podcasts or writing poetry. Which one would I like better today? True crime podcast. And then I compare two other ideas, and it becomes this March madness bracket of their passions, and they get down to their final four, and that’s where I have them stop.

Liz Radday [00:22:33]:
And these aren’t necessarily capstone projects. They’re definitely not projects. They’re just topics and interests. And sometimes that final four can be four things that are totally different, and sometimes kids will try to relate them. So the winning project we had at our small workspace pitch this year was a documentary called still broken. And the young woman that made this documentary not only was really interested in documentary film, but the topic was about benefit cliffs and people in New Haven living in different places and experiencing poverty, and how as you start to come out of poverty, your benefits are taken away, but you’re not really ready to not have those benefits anymore. So we were talking with her about how she almost had two projects there. There was this very deep investigation into benefit clips and also this really phenomenally done documentary.

Liz Radday [00:23:33]:
And I think it probably was two different project ideas that came together. So sometimes it is different things. We had a girl who was really into art, but her grandfather was living in an Alzheimer’s, like a memory unit. And so she did a pretty deep study on what kind of visual images would go well in a memory care unit. So should she paint real lives or still lives or portraits? And she ended up creating kind of these abstract, solid color block pieces that, based on her psychology side, she was able to create the art. So sometimes we just try to bring projects together. So the interests, it depends on the kid. The hardest ones are kids that come in and say, I have no interests.

Liz Radday [00:24:21]:
And we run into that with high schoolers a lot. They are the toughest nuts to crack when they come in and they say, I don’t know. I don’t have any interests. And that’s when we really have to dig. Okay, so what kind of, when you say you’re doing nothing after school, you’re not doing nothing. You’re not doing nothing. What are you doing? Watching YouTube. Okay, so what are you watching on YouTube? Because it’s probably not what I’m watching on YouTube.

Liz Radday [00:24:46]:
And so really digging in. Okay, and so what do you like about those kinds of videos? Is it about learning how to cook? Is it about seeing the final product? Is it about the cartoon characters? And that’s where those students need more help digging. But you always find something the kid is interested in.

Matthew Worwood [00:25:06]:
I think within that answer, what I think is important also to highlight is that sometimes it’s about maintaining an interest that you’ve had and always had and being able to further that interest, but also having an opportunity to pursue or look for a different type of outlet of creative expression. So the example that you gave of the dance, for example. I’m interested in dance. Well, that’s the interest that we want to encourage, continue to facilitate in the school environment for all of the reasons that we’ve discussed around interests and why they’re important. But you also have got an opportunity for a different outlet of creativity, which is, I’m going to teach other people how to dance. So I think that was an absolutely wonderful example of showing how we can keep the same interests but actually pursue different forms of creative expression, which I think, in some ways ties back to what I said earlier around kind of challenging yourself to do new and different things.

Liz Radday [00:26:02]:
Some of the highest achievers sometimes struggle with being told they have to do a capstone because they’re already doing a million things, and they are taking five AP classes, and they’re already the president of the National Honor Society, and they play softball and they do the school play. And for those kids, they’re like, you want me to do what? Another project? And those are the students that we say, you’re already doing something Capstone worthy. Tweak it like, okay, great. You’re in the school play. Can you direct a scene this year instead of just being on stage as the lead? What if we twist that a little bit? Have you ever directed? No, let’s just twist something you’re already doing so that among the million other things you’re doing, you are still getting that learning stretch, you’re still getting that experience, and it is stretching you because you’ve already been good at everything you’ve done, right? Like, these are the students that have already gotten A’s. They’ve always studied, they’ve always worked hard. So just taking something they’ve always done, and again, just twisting it a little bit to make it that challenge and not just say, okay, you’re the lead in the play. That’s your capstone.

Liz Radday [00:27:11]:
No, you’re the lead in the play. We can use that as your capstone, but now you’re going to direct a scene.

Matthew Worwood [00:27:16]:
Liz, I think we’ve already, or rather, you have already brought a whole bunch of different strategies that can assist teachers in kind of enriching and enhancing the learning experience for students, and also doing that by accommodating interests. And that has been a theme that has been, again, very prominent in the episodes where we’ve discussed it, talented, gifted, and students who express excellence in something. But I do want to come back to something that I’ve been thinking about. And again, it’s asking for maybe a strategy that you have, but it’s motivation, right? If a student is really passionate about something, they’ve probably got some innate motivation, and therefore, they’re just naturally engaged in the project. And when I’ve met or interacted or worked with students like that, it’s almost like job half done. But the real challenge is students that are struggling to connect the project to an interest. They’re not necessarily being able to engage passions. And therefore, motivation can be a challenge.

Matthew Worwood [00:28:19]:
And then when motivation is a challenge, we try and look to external factors that might kind of, like, stimulate motivation, and they’re not always as effective when it comes to facilitating creativity in others. So I’m just curious, is there any strategies that an educator can take on specifically to help the one or two or a few students in the class that are just struggling to get motivated, partly because they’re unable to identify or find a passion that they think connects to the assignment that’s being presented to them?

Liz Radday [00:28:49]:
Yeah, it’s a challenge, and we see every class has one or two kids every year that we just can’t help that student find the right project. But I think encouraging that student to not give up and think outside of the box as far as what that final product can be. And it doesn’t have to be something tangible all the time or it doesn’t have to look like school. And I think that’s where kids are so used to. What do you want it to be? I will produce it for you. I want the a or even I want the c or the d to get by. Like, tell me what you want and I will do it for you. Going back to that compliance thing.

Liz Radday [00:29:37]:
And so I think the best thing we can do is give kids lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of examples. Something kids are always pretty motivated by is making money. So we talk sometimes about careers and interest. So if you have nothing else to do, no other project ideas, let’s at least explore a career that you might be interested in. Because I know you want to make money. How do you want to make that money? Is it sitting at a desk? Great. Let’s figure out what kind of desk jobs might you be interested in? No, you don’t ever want to sit behind a desk again once you graduate from twelveth grade. Great.

Liz Radday [00:30:11]:
What is it you want to do? Do you want to get your hands dirty? Is it in a creative field? Is it in a technical field? You think you want to go to a technical college for electronics or to become a mechanic? Have you done any of that before? So career pathways are kind of, I guess that would be my tip is look at career pathways. Because kids are motivated by money. They know that they have to make it someday. And some want to make a lot of it. Most want to make a lot of it. And so even, okay, so you want to be really rich but you want this career. Can you be really rich with this career? And how does that look? Or you want to own your own business because you want to be your own boss? How does that look? What does that look like for you? What kind of business are you going to own?

Cyndi Burnett [00:31:00]:
Unfortunately, we have to wrap up our conversation. But Liz, we end every show with asking this question. What three tips would you give to educators to bring creativity into their classroom?

Liz Radday [00:31:12]:
All right, I’ve got three tips. So my first one is by giving kids voice and choice. That is how they find creativity. They need to feel control over the process and that is how the most creative things come out of school. My second tip is find some time to do it. Whether it’s a personal interest project that you’re only going to give kids half an hour to work on over the course of a year. But they can do something they’re interested in. Find time.

Liz Radday [00:31:40]:
It’s okay to start small. You don’t have to start with a full year long Capstone class, although that is awesome. And then the third tip is to do your own personal interest project, or capstone, alongside the students and go through that same experience so you can feel what they’re experiencing. Run into those same roadblocks. Do something. Don’t make it related to school. Do not do something that looks anything academic. Learn to knit.

Liz Radday [00:32:08]:
Bake your own chocolate cake. Do something that’s creative for you and something you’ve always wanted to learn, solve, make, or do. And do it alongside your students so that they can see you modeling it. They can see you running into the failure. They can see your first really terrible acrylic painting or whatever it is that you make. And it’s inspiring for them to see that adults make mistakes, too, and have failure and learn the same way that they do.

Cyndi Burnett [00:32:33]:
I love that, Liz. And I just want to point out to our listeners, if you’re interested in doing that as an educator, check out season one’s episode with Casey Lathrop, where we talk about 50 days of practice, of creative practice, because I think that would be a great add on to this show. Matt. So, Liz, thank you so much for joining us today. That concludes this episode of the fueling Creativity and Education podcast. If you have any questions or thoughts about this episode or past or future episodes, please reach out to us at questions@fuelingcreativitypodcast.com. My name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood [00:33:07]:
And my name is Dr. Matthew Werwood.

Cyndi Burnett [00:33:10]:
This podcast was produced by creativity and education and in partnership with dabsforcreativity.com. Our editor is Sina Test Today close.