Erinn Flloyd:
Across the nation. Each state has its own policy for gifted education. It would be wonderful if either there were a more uniform, equitable policy and mandate for gifted. Every state doesn’t even have a mandate. Let me say that. But it would be wonderful if across the United States, there was more uniform policy for more equitable inclusion of students from special populations.

Matthew Worwood:
Hello everyone. My name is Dr. Matthew Worwood.

Cyndi Burnett:
And my name is Dr. Cindy Burnett.

Matthew Worwood:
This is the Fuelling Creativity in Education podcast.

Cyndi Burnett:
On this podcast, we’ll be talking about various creativity topics and how they relate to the field of education.

Matthew Worwood:
We’ll be talking with scholars, educators, and resident experts about their work, challenges they face, and exploring new perspectives of creativity.

Cyndi Burnett:
All with a goal to help fuel a more rich and informed discussion that provides teachers, administrators, and emerging scholars with the information they need to infuse creativity into teaching and learning.

Matthew Worwood:
So, let’s begin. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fueling Creativity in Education podcast. And welcome to our continued exciting start to season 10, which is a collection of episodes dedicated to exploring diversity topics within gifted and talented education.

Cyndi Burnett:
These episodes were recorded on location at the 2024 National association for Gifted and Talented conference in Seattle, Washington, which is what makes them extra special.

Matthew Worwood:
And in this final episode of the miniseries, we sat down with Dr. Erin Fiers Floyd, who is a gifted education, diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Social justice scholar serving as Director of Training and Partnership Development for the Consortium for Inclusion of Underrepresented Racial Groups in gifted education.

Cyndi Burnett:
Dr. Floyd is an assistant professor at the University of Georgia and lecturer at Texas State University, San Marcos. She is a former Director of Professional Learning for the national association for Gifted Children and State Director of Gifted Education for the Alabama Department of Education. She has over 30 years of experience as a classroom teacher, gifted and social improvement specialist, district gifted education coordinator, and assistant principal, and has provided professional learning opportunities for educators at all levels in Alabama, nationally and internationally.

Matthew Worwood:
So, let’s begin. So, Erin, thank you so much for joining us. Before we started recording, you said you’ve been to NAGC conference a lot. Could you tell us a little bit about your work, how you got involved with the conference, and more importantly, some changes that you’ve seen occur over your time coming to this conference.

Erinn Flloyd:
My first conference was as a graduate student at the University of Georgia, working on my doctorate in Educational psychology and at that time, instructional Technology with an emphasis in gifted and creative education. They’ve since changed the name of the program and taken out the instructional technology piece, but it was while attending that program that my major advisor highly volunteered me and recommended participation in this very elite conference for the study and support of gifted children. And I was encouraged to submit a proposal and it was based on my work toward my dissertation. And it was accepted and I was very excited. It was in Minneapolis, very, very cold. But I attended and learned a great deal about the organization, about supporting gifted children. I met a ton of people who till this day are still colleagues and friends in this work. And over the years I’ve continued to return and grown in the organization from Amir, graduate student to now co chair of the diversity equity committee for the organization and being highly involved in special populations network.

Cyndi Burnett:
Thank you so much. And can you tell us a little bit about the work that you’re doing now in diversity and equity, in particular with gifted education and creativity?

Erinn Flloyd:
So this is what I consider my life’s work mostly because it is a part of my own personal experience as a student and then as I would say, doing the work. You know, as an educator, I have roots in a very rural space in Alabama. I’m from Alabama. And in that space there’s a very rich history with the Tuskegee Airmen, with Tuskegee Institute, then, you know, now university. So many researchers and important traditions there that even as a classroom teacher, there were students who were unaware of the rich history, culture and history right there where they lived. So part of my goal as a first year gifted specialist was to ensure that they knew where they came from. They knew the rich history that they lived in, the grounds they walked. They needed to know the people who led the way for them.

Erinn Flloyd:
So that was a part of the curriculum, if you will. For my first year as a gifted specialist and then even moving into other roles as the state coordinator for gifted education for the state of Alabama, it became increasingly clear that there were teachers who were not quite aware of how to best find gifted children, especially students of color and those who were from underprivileged backgrounds. And they were underrepresented in, and remain today underrepresented in gifted education programs. So my mission was to help the educators understand these groups of children better and identify them so that we could increase racial equity in the state of Alabama. And from that position, I became director of professional learning for the national association for Gifted Children. The very conference we’re attending, hosted by the organization, again still dealing with professional learning, helping others understand this work and to attend this conference to go back to their respective districts and schools and advance the cause or get the education, whatever specific area they were interested in. I continue to do research and Write, publish on these topics and speak. I’m invited to universities or school districts to speak about diversity and equity and racial representation and gifted education and, of course, professional learning, which are all my passions.

Erinn Flloyd:
It’s very important to me to continue this work. I’m the mother of two children, both gifted, but we struggled with formal identification for the very reasons I’ve mentioned before that teachers didn’t understand how to identify children. So I’ve gotten it on both sides, you know, personally growing up and as a mother, but then professionally, in the work that I choose and love to.

Matthew Worwood:
Do now in response to that. And I’ve got lots of different things I’d love to respond to, but, you know, Cindy and I are learning a lot about gifted education, which we’ve referenced in a different episode that the changing names that we’ve seen occur. With that, we have spoken a little bit about the challenges, the overall challenges with identification of gifted learners. But I specifically want to talk a little bit more about. Okay, I understand the challenge of identifying gifted learners, but tell us a little bit more about the challenge when it comes to identifying gifted learners of students of color in particular. What are the barriers and also what progress, if any progress, have you experienced during your time in this field?

Erinn Flloyd:
Well, I’ll tell you. The origins of gifted education were very separatist. The eugenics movement sort of promote. Not sort of. It promoted separation of children of color from white students. And that was gifted education was created to provide a different type of education for white students. It was as if the researchers believed that students of color were not intelligent, could not be labeled gifted. And one of the prominent scholars and researchers in this field is Dr.

Erinn Flloyd:
Martin D. Jenkins, for which the Special Populations Network has created the Jenkins Scholar Award for Academically Creative black students middle through high school. Each year, this award is given to these students who apply and they’re nominated by their teachers and families. They submit wonderful applications and portfolios, and they’re selected and they’re brought to NAGC and they receive the award, and they’re able to participate in activities beyond NAGC. But because of Dr. Jenkins work, clearly proving that eugenics was out of place, inequitable and unfair. It shows that not understanding another group because they’re different, because of culture or race or economics or even experiences does not preclude them from participation or being, you know, worthy of participation in gifted education programs. Everywhere over the years, there has been increased emphasis and focus on being more inclusive.

Erinn Flloyd:
There are still districts and schools that struggle with this, but because of the eugenics Movement and the idea that one intelligence score determines gifted eligibility. The challenge is looking at multiple criteria. The work of Dr. Mary Frazier and even creativity with Dr. E. Paul Torrance is indicative of showing multiple layers of creativity and talent among children, especially students from backgrounds that haven’t been studied or are or are misunderstood or even misrepresented. So it’s important to help educators see the multivariate ways that students of color, students from minoritized backgrounds, can be and should be further studied and included in special programs for gifted and talented students.

Cyndi Burnett:
Thank you for that response. So I’m curious, when you work with educators, how do you help them to identify gifted students or highly capable students, particularly in, in terms of equity and inclusion, to make sure that we’re seeing everyone that needs to be seen?

Erinn Flloyd:
This is probably going to sound like a very atypical answer, but it is what happens. Many teachers consider teacher pleasers first when they’re thinking about gifted identification or even a nomination process. You know, who’s the sweetest, who’s, you know, most willing to cooperate, or, you know, who gets all A’s, you know, who even comes to school nice and neat and pretty and, you know, well dressed. That’s nice. But it’s not required. I ask teachers in many trainings, think about a student who challenges you, who asks questions when you’ve clearly made it, you know, known that it’s time to move on from the question and answers. You know, it’s time to get to work. You know, who really makes you scratch your head, who gives you probably a hard time in terms of your day is not as smooth as it could go, whose desk is messy, who takes the pencil sharpener apart but puts it back together perfectly and it works better than it did before.

Erinn Flloyd:
These students that probably challenge teachers that, you know, make them go home a little bit more exhausted in the day are ones that they might think about differently. Because even if they have a challenge in an academic area, you know, maybe they’re a great student in language arts, but they struggle in math or vice versa, or they have a speech impediment. You know, there are students who have learning challenges who are also gifted. But that is not how traditionally teachers have been taught to think about highly gifted and talented students. It’s the one who makes the perfect grades. It’s the one who comes to school neat and nice and who has, you know, a two parent home and they’re economically sound. There are highly gifted and talented students throughout the years who don’t fit that stereotypical assumption of a gifted child when the teachers are challenged to consider those students, you know, even using humor in ways that might otherwise be considered inappropriate, but clearly putting two formerly unknown or unrelated ideas together in a way that makes sense, that shows that the thought process of the student and how well they’re able to connect these two things, think of them differently. I just challenge teachers to really consider students who they probably have overlooked for whatever reason, thinking about them differently and applying some of the gifted information that we’re talking about in the sessions.

Erinn Flloyd:
And they leave with almost an aha moment like oh my gosh, that’s what it is. And I encourage them to continue to do that. And There are what Dr. Mary Frazier from the University of Georgia and a very prominent scholar in gifted education and at the both Georgia association for Gifted Children and the national association for Gifted Children created the Frazier tabs. These are 10 constructs in giftedness, some of which are humor, inquiry, communication. Considering those constructs in ways that, even when they’re not so positive, still may be signs or indicators of giftedness. We have to encourage educators to think more positively about even the differences they see in students. We call it moving from deficit thinking to dynamic thinking and not thinking first of a student’s challenges.

Erinn Flloyd:
Consider the strengths, but help them turn those challenges into championships and how they are able to view their abilities in a way that even if it is a bit of a challenge, it does not preclude them from being gifted or a high ability student, or even a talented student worthy of participation in the programs that help meet their specific learning needs.

Matthew Worwood:
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Cyndi Burnett:
Curiosity to Create is a nonprofit organization dedicated to engaging professional development for school districts and empowering educators through online courses and personal coaching.

Matthew Worwood:
And if you’re craving a community of creative educators who love new ideas, don’t miss out on their creative thinking network. Get access to monthly webinars, creative lesson plans, and a supportive community all focused on fostering creativity in the classroom.

Cyndi Burnett :
To learn more, check out curiositytocreate.org or check out the links in the show notes for this episode.

Matthew Worwood:
Now, one of the things that I’ve been learning at the conference is how important aspects of this system of identifying gifted students and then being able to support those gifted students quite often come down to one teacher in a school, which I think speaks a little bit to the priority for gifted ed across the country. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more specifically about that challenge in your home State. And again, I’m particularly interested to see, hopefully stories of progression towards improving that effort.

Erinn Flloyd :
Certainly similar to the one intelligence test says a child is gifted or not, at least there was that belief many moons ago. And unfortunately there are some places that still use that ideology. One teacher is probably not the best indicator of a student’s eligibility for identification in a gifted program. I mentioned Dr. Mary Frazier before in the tabs. Traits, aptitudes and behaviors. A part of that process is for a committee of educators who can speak to a student’s giftedness, who can speak to even the student’s personality and their culture and their background and their ability in a classroom or their creativity. A multitude of experiences from different perspectives.

Erinn Flloyd :
For example, a fourth grade student who struggles in math may be a scholar in language arts. If you only rely on the math teacher’s experiences with that student, you probably won’t get a nomination for a gifted education program. But if at the table you also bring the language arts teacher and her experiences and opinions of the same student who, who has had great success in the classroom, who’s a leader, who’s excelling, then the two of them can have a conversation. While there are three required, there may be the gifted education specialist, the counselor, it could be a custodian. Because at some point during the day, any of these educators are experiencing the student at school and may see high signs of creativity or ability or even talent. So this comp committee, this committee of three, are able to sit down and have a conversation where the positive and the successes and strengths and creativity of the student are considered. And it’s not just from a deficit perspective. It’s important to note that over time, conversations like those about students with more than one person, you know, gives this student a chance more so than just that one opinion.

Erinn Flloyd:
Many years ago, Dr. Mary Frazier gave the state of Alabama permission to include in the second grade child find process the Frasier tabs so that those ten constructs are trained. The teachers are trained on them. They have conversations about what does this look like, what does this mean in the classroom. There’s a rating scale. There are conversations. The teachers go and observe the students that come back and have conversations again with the gifted specialist. And then the steps move on for referral to identification, if applicable, for that student, on for further testing if necessary.

Erinn Flloyd:
That was pivotal in helping increase racial equity in the state of Alabama. I’m very proud to conduct training for educators across the United States on Dr. Mary Fraser’s tabs. And the conversations that come from that training are very Rich and teachers begin to see a little bit more clearly how the students manifestation of even gifted behaviors can appear other than what they’ve come to know or what they thought they knew or what they’ve been experiencing. In conversations with other teachers about gifted students thinking because of one outlier, oh, this child can’t be gifted, but certainly they still can.

Matthew Worwood:
I don’t know if you’ve got a follow up, Cindy, but. But what? I am hearing some progress, but I think there’s efforts within the identification process to recognize that the giftedness also might be expressed differently, of course, and in different environments. If I’m an educator listing now who’s been charged with developing a gifted program or supporting gifted ed in my school, I think it sounds like I shouldn’t necessarily take this on myself, that this is a collaborative effort and I need to secure buy in for my school. So my follow up question is how do I secure that buy in? What language? What. What is the pitch of why something like gifted ed should take greater priority in my school when compared to all the other priorities that we’re presented with at the beginning of the academic year?

Erinn Flloyd:
It takes but one look at any student who is potentially gifted. A student who maybe has not yet been identified, but is exhibiting characteristics even of the duality of performing well in one class and not so well in another, or who’s bored or who’s underachieving, or who even may have poor behavior, which may be atypical to what someone knows about that child. We have to think about who we’re here to serve. Gifted education does not have the same federal support as special education. The other side I call of the spectrum. There’s federal legislation that supports students with disabilities. I’ve always been a proponent of the same for gifted students. Gifted education is in a sense a form of specialized education wherein students need specialized instruction, extra support, and educators who understand their varying needs.

Erinn Flloyd:
So if in a school, and unfortunately throughout the past few years we’ve heard of programs, gifted programs that are in consideration of being dismantled, be it funding, lack of instructors for the program, or just the idea that it’s separatist or elitist. When you look at gifted policy in a school or in a district, how are students being identified? Who’s at the table to make decisions about who should be included in the referral to identification process? Are parents considered? Are parents input requested for the students because the parents knew them first? What we see of students in schools may not represent everything about that child. So the more people that are at the table to have the conversation about how to better support them, then the students benefit, the programs flourish, support from the community. It takes a village, literally, even with support for gifted education, for us to be more successful in meeting the needs of the students from wherever they come, with whatever experiences they have and the support they need to thrive.

Cyndi Burnett:
So, Erin, you mentioned at the beginning of our interview that this is your mission and your life’s purpose. So thank you for sharing that and thank you for doing this. Important I want you to imagine it’s three to five years from now. It’s maybe 2030. What do you wish to see in 2030 and how has the field moved forward in a positive way?

Erinn Flloyd:
I would love to see greater racial representation in gifted education at schools across the country. I think that while there have been improvements in the conversations and the work of, say, multiple criteria, considering more than just a single test score to identify a student, bringing in teachers of students, persons who know students, to discuss their strengths along with their challenges, that there’s still work to do. I think while there are districts who are showing greater interest in improving racial equity in their programs. If the federal government were to mandate gifted education similar to special education, which in some states gifted education falls under special education because gifted education requires specialized instruction for students who have specialized learning needs. If this were a federal mandate, we probably will have a lot more buy in and support an active advocacy and results even for racial representation from all districts and states. I would love for more teachers and principals and local and state superintendents to pursue gifted education training, especially in identification of special populations. I think that teacher preparation programs should require all applicants and graduates to have gifted education coursework and even certification as a part of their licensure. Should be this gifted piece, this gifted track.

Erinn Flloyd:
It’s always been a passion of mine to provide professional learning for general educators in classrooms. K12 classrooms in general education classrooms is where students are gifted 24 7. They’re not just gifted when they go down the hallway to the gifted specialist classroom. So if they’re general education education teacher understood them better even before they’re identified. If there are potentially gifted students in a classroom, the teacher is better able to help them along the gifted referral to identification process to recognize their gifts and talents, however different they may be and they would understand how to better serve them in their classrooms once identified when they come back. I think that there’s work to be done. 2030 for me would also look like more teachers of color as gifted specialists who’ve gone through the programs and the training and the licensure research has shown how students benefit from teachers with similar backgrounds and cultures and experiences. I think that there has been progress in the field, but we have a lot of work to do and I’m so dedicated to being a part of this work.

Erinn Flloyd:
I have faith that we are going to continue to make great strides.

Cyndi Burnett:
Lovely. So we are going to end with our final question, which is what has been your most creative educational experience, either as a teacher or as a learner in an informal or formal setting? And why would you consider that a creative educational experience?

Erinn Flloyd:
You asked earlier about how I’d like to see gifted education a few years down the road, and a part of my response was professional learning for all educators. The result of some of my previous experiences and work in this field came to fruition in a professional learning course I created even when I was in a K12 setting. As the gifted specialist for the district, then gifted coordinator, I was a part of the district professional learning team and I developed a great love for professional learning. Well, of course there’s my interest in gifted education, and then I was a classroom teacher. So all of these put together sort of compelled me to. With my interest, especially in having more people learn about gifted students, even if they’re not a gifted, specialized teacher. I created an online learning module that allows anyone, they don’t have to be a gifted specialist, classroom teacher, PE coach, principal, custodian, you know, counselor, anyone, to engage in modules to learn about gifted identification of special populations. It’s on demand.

Erinn Flloyd:
There’s no time frame, if you will. There’s a goal to finish in a particular amount of time, but no requirement. If they do not, it can be extended until they finish, but hopefully within a few months they should be able to complete the course. But there’s research included, there are videos from experts in the field, and it is designed for them at their own pace to engage in the modules, to learn about students from minoritized backgrounds, students living in poverty, students who identify as lgbtq, any experiences that these students may have that allows teachers to, in their own quiet time and space, read about them, learn about them, engage in the modules, and walk away with a different and better understanding of the students. The course concludes with a certificate digital badge that of course is more popular now in education, formerly more so in business and the sciences, but now in education and now gifted education. But I have provided this course for about four years now, and I have had universities, school districts, even individuals engage in. I’ve gotten wonderful feedback and I feel like I’m doing My part, to help general educators learn more about students with challenges to being identified, gifted and understood, even in their giftedness and their uniqueness. There’s also a course on cultural responsive teaching and leadership that I have created for teachers that goes a little bit further with the cultural nuances of these students from different backgrounds and beliefs and behaviors that are often misunderstood.

Erinn Flloyd:
But how do teachers engage them in classrooms? How are classroom educators supported by their school building leaders as well as their district level leaders to ensure that cultural responsiveness is present in the building and in the district? It’s a part of policy, it’s a part of practice, it’s a part of pedagogy. And that it’s not something we’re doing because the district says we have to or the state has sent down the pipeline something to do, but it’s a part of who we are and we’re more inclusive and equitable in our practices. Across the nation, each state has its own policy for gifted education. It would be wonderful if either there were a more uniform, equitable policy and mandate for gifted. Every state doesn’t even have a mandate, let me say that. But those that do, there’s a state report card that sort of shows what each state is doing. But it would be wonderful if across the United States, there was more uniform policy for more equitable inclusion of students from special populations, because everyone gets to do what they want to do. Depending on where you live, you may or may not get the services you deserve or require or desire.

Erinn Flloyd:
But there needs to be a conversation about how each state is meeting the needs of gifted students. And beyond that conversation, some legislative advocacy, which NAGC is also involved with, that promotes more equitable representation and services for all students.

Matthew Worwood:
So, Erin, I mean, we’ve had some amazing conversations. I’ve learned so much about gifted ed, which I know is sometimes referred to as talented, and giftedness, which I know in the state of Washington, we’ve learned about highly capable students as well. The challenges around dei, twice exceptional. These have all been really fascinating topics. And what strikes me and comforts me is that there are incredibly passionate practitioners and teachers who feel a sense of purpose and mission to address this. And I think obviously you’re a big part of solving the many challenges that we’ve explored. But we also are grateful for your education on some of these issues because I know from this conference I’ve learned so much more about gifted ed, which I typically would associate primarily with creativity. But there’s so much that I’ve learned.

Matthew Worwood:
So thank you so much. If you’re listening to this, please check out our website@foldingcreativitypodcast.com if you have questions for us, then that’s questionsuelingcreativity podcast.com. we’ve got all of these amazing episodes, as well as our commentary from our emerging scholar, Jimmy Wilson. I’m Dr. Matthew Worwood. I’m signing off. I’m exhausted. Cindy.

Matthew Worwood:
It’s been a long conference.

Cyndi Burnett :
And I’m Dr. Cindy Burnett. Thank you so much.

Erinn Flloyd:
Thank you.

Cyndi Burnett:
You’ve been listening to the Fueling Creativity and Education podcast, hosted by Matthew Worwood and Cindy Burnett. Our creative producer is Catherine Fu. And this episode was made possible thanks to our sponsor, Curiosity to create.